Cardinal Martini says Catholic Church "200 years behind"

[ringil]

It’s not about being outside our comfort zone. It’s about being outside the bounds of the morally acceptable. Just because he is a bishop doesn’t mean he can’t be dead wrong on some, or even most topics. Many priests and bishops have fallen into heresy in the past (and outnumbered the faithful clergy). Let’s not pretend that it can’t happen today.

And when many laymen would arrogantly express themselves as if their lowly opinion carries the weight of those with the actual education and authority to teach the Catholic Faith.

Armchair theologians and canon lawyers pontificating from their basements. . . . .

 

[superamazingman]

He apologized after the outrage began…so, how do we know that it wasn’t a media apology? We’ve certainly all seen plenty of those. Again, we ascribe the most charitable motives to him, but we don’t to the Cardinal.

Here’s the other problem. Fr. Benedict does not have multiple instances of saying things that go against the teachings of Holy Mother Church. This cardinal does, with his remarks on marriage, contraception, etc… It’s not at all the same situation. He may be sincere, but he’s sincerely wrong.

 

[SpeakInSilence]

CAF does not present the best side of Catholicism- that is certainly true.

I really can’t imagine anyone considering the Church being struck by the Christian lovethey find on much of CAF fodder- where “admonish the sinner” is the most highly prized corporal act of mercy, and “fraternal correction” is so beloved a duty.

1. I find it funny that someone who spends so much time on CAF thinks it’s the worst place to find true Catholicism.

To tell you the truth I’ve been on these forums for a while now and I can say this post, in it’s self, is one of the most judgmental post I’ve seen.

1. On a different note, I think the Cardinal’s heart is probably in the right place. Though there have been known to be Cardinals who have been dishonest and preached false teachings I do not think there is even close to enough evidence to prove he had bad intentions, but there is evidence to show that some of his beliefs were slightly out of line with Church dogma; however I think this is a HORRIBLE time for us to use him as some sort of political tool for our own ends right after his death.

If the Holy Father thought he was worry of praises than he was worry of praises. He is and was our Cardinal, and in that we need to respect that he knows more than us half the time when it comes to Church teachings.

 

[pnewton]

Armchair theologians and canon lawyers pontificating from their basements. . . . .

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man”), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or unrelated belief of the person supporting it.

The location of the person, or the person himself is irrelevant to the argument presented, especially when the person is quoting, or mirroring, accepted and officiatl Church teaching, as in that contraceptive is an objective moral sin, this Cardinals opinion notwithstanding.

 

[Havard]

He apologized after the outrage began…so, how do we know that it wasn’t a media apology? We’ve certainly all seen plenty of those. Again, we ascribe the most charitable motives to him, but we don’t to the Cardinal.

Then why not do just that? You are asking for even-handedness and questioning Father’s motives for apologizing in the same post.

Give the benefit of the doubt to both, IMHO.

 

[SpeakInSilence]

It seems that too many people on both sides of the political camp are very eager to point the finger and say, “HEY HEY! You did this earlier! You hypocrite, you liar, I’m more righteous than you!”.

This Cardinal had some view that was against official Church teaching, was he in the wrong for that? Yes.

However he was a Cardinal, he was highly respect, and highly loved among the laity. I can only hope to be as holy as he was.

This should be a time for mourning a leader of the Church, maybe not the strongest leader, maybe not the greatest Cardinal, but he was loved and tonight we should reflect on his love for God and our own.

 

[Havard]

But if you are praising Jesus for going against the norms…why not praise Cardinal Martini for doing/suggesting the same?

First off, I can only go off of what’s been reported, so I have no idea what His Eminence actually said of believed.

But what’s being reported suggests that His Eminence said the opposite. That is, they’re saying he believed we should be getting in line with the norms. Case in point, the whole “out of date” talking point the media keeps repeating.

 

[Glennford]

“The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The pedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation.”

Heh, it was quite a “journey of transformation” that the seminaries undertook to end up being breeding grounds for this sort of behavior. Maybe we need to be a little more scrupulous about which “journeys of transformation” we undertake in the future, eh? And, seriously, we’re going to have to start making things up if we’re going to admit more mistakes. The Church has already taken responsibility for everything except Prohibition, Yoko Ono, and the Macarena.

Rest in peace, you’re completely God’s problem now.

 

[Havard]

It seems that too many people on both sides of the political camp are very eager to point the finger and say, “HEY HEY! You did this earlier! You hypocrite, you liar, I’m more righteous than you!”.

This Cardinal had some view that was against official Church teaching, was he in the wrong for that? Yes.

However he was a Cardinal, he was highly respect, and highly loved among the laity. I can only hope to be as holy as he was.

This should be a time for mourning a leader of the Church, maybe not the strongest leader, maybe not the greatest Cardinal, but he was loved and tonight we should reflect on his love for God and our own.

Great post.

 

[gus]

I praise him and his talents and brains and bravery.

I gave father a pass because a combination of stroke and auto accident have severely dimished his communication
abillity. I also heard he a fall the day before the interview.
It has been painfull at times to watch this once great communicator.
Why was he being interviewed
The folks at NC had no business printing the interview.
I don’t know Cardinal but. I do know a bit of Italy
were the Church has in big problems.
The word of the Cardinal
Sound like lamentations of a good man who feels
he has. been a failure.
If they were actually in context.
Unfortunately he will never get anopporunity to clarify his remarks.He really needs ours prayers

 

[gus]

But if you are praising Jesus for going against the norms…why not praise Cardinal Martini for doing/suggesting the same?

Because the norm is what the the alleged quotes want the Church to be.
Its this counter culturial aspect of the Church that. brought
this rebel back.
PS my late mother use to say charity begins at home.
She would be 99 tomorrow

 

[pnewton]

This Cardinal had some view that was against official Church teaching, was he in the wrong for that? Yes…

Yet even this must be considered, that as a Cardinal he was allowed some leeway of disagreement with what is best in the life of the Church. Even in areas of doctrine, especially where that doctrine is being developed around new technology and innovation, Cardinals are allowed leeway. This is part of the process of discernment in these matters.

I like what you posted, as well as what gus posted about this interview should never have been published. Most outside the Church do not understand this process, but look at the Church through the goggles of civil politics.

 

[seekerz]

Because the norm is what the the alleged quotes want the Church to be.
Its this counter culturial aspect of the Church that. brought
this rebel back.
PS my late mother use to say charity begins at home.
She would be 99 tomorrow

It’s not a bad thing to be counter cultural, but I do believe there is a point at which teachings can be rendered ineffective if their practical application is not adjusted to address the issues of the time. In that general sense, though not necessarily in the specifics, I agree with the Cardinal.

Too often, in trying to figure out the right thing to do as a Catholic, one hears the principle and it’s ideal application - sometimes missing is the practical application in the world as it is today and even more sorely missing sometimes are the communal supports necessary to remain true to our beliefs given the external pressures and present realities. Principles are necessary and good, but people must feel like they have the ability (or can find the strength within our communities) to actually live them.

 

[LegoGE1947]

It’s not a bad thing to be counter cultural, but I do believe there is a point at which teachings can be rendered ineffective if their practical application is not adjusted to address the issues of the time. In that general sense, though not necessarily in the specifics, I agree with the Cardinal.

Too often, in trying to figure out the right thing to do as a Catholic, one hears the principle and it’s ideal application - sometimes missing is the practical application in the world as it is today and even more sorely missing sometimes are the communal supports necessary to remain true to our beliefs given the external pressures and present realities. Principles are necessary and good, but people must feel like they have the ability (or can find the strength within our communities) to actually live them.

There are things about Christianity in general, not just catholic, protestant, or orthodox, that are hard to actually live. I guess that’s why God gave us the Holy Spirit. You have to admire the courage of Christians in the middle east, Africa, and Asia who endeavour to live out the Gospel in the midst of harsh political regimes.

 

[superamazingman]

It’s not a bad thing to be counter cultural, but I do believe there is a point at which teachings can be rendered ineffective if their practical application is not adjusted to address the issues of the time. In that general sense, though not necessarily in the specifics, I agree with the Cardinal.

Too often, in trying to figure out the right thing to do as a Catholic, one hears the principle and it’s ideal application - sometimes missing is the practical application in the world as it is today and even more sorely missing sometimes are the communal supports necessary to remain true to our beliefs given the external pressures and present realities. Principles are necessary and good, but people must feel like they have the ability (or can find the strength within our communities) to actually live them.

This cardinal isn’t being counter-cultural. He’s being cultural. The true church teaching is counter-cultural, and that’s what he’s not.

 

[KCT]

Sounds like he wanted to make the Church Protestant. In that case, it’s more than 200 years behind!

 

[LegoGE1947]

Sounds like he wanted to make the Church Protestant. In that case, it’s more than 200 years behind!

I have a 65-years behind. I’m sitting on it just now!

 

[Tigg]

I guess it would never occur to anyone here to think that perhaps the good Cardinal’s prayer, study and reflection may have led him to his conclusions? That he might have known a bit more about Church doctrine and history than a bunch of us Internet posters?

And, as a high-ranking member of the hierarchy, surely he knew better than any of us, exactly what the Magisterium is and how it is not comprised of just one member.

I wonder if the prayer rooms are empty for lack of knowledge of the Faith?

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Just because he is a bishop doesn’t mean he can’t be dead wrong on some, or even most topics. Many priests and bishops have fallen into heresy in the past (and outnumbered the faithful clergy). Let’s not pretend that it can’t happen today.

Exactly.

 

[Tigg]

So true yet so many people here are so legalistic and judgemental here! Where is love in all this? I love going to Mass but the Catholics on here are a real turn-off. This is not a way to bring people to the Catholic faith!

Every time I see this comment, I’m going to counter with this quote:

“Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment
and it is unmerciful to the error in the minds of those who do not accept Truth.”

Venerable Archbsp Fulton J. Sheen