Cardinal Marx Calls for more Lay involvement

[pnewton]

Dear Pnewton,

However, I am of the firm opinion that what generates vocations is to be staunchly orthodox rather than “wishy-washy”.

I have two points. First, we must be careful not to equate the orthodox with the traditional, or the heterodox with the liberal. One can be orthodox and liberal, or heterodox and traditional.

Second, even assuming there is a correlation between orthodox and vocations, never assuming a causality between the two. I would rather think that there is a common causality that lead both to loss of doctrinal soundness and vocations. Specifically, I think secularism and the plethora of related changes could be the cause of both, especially since we are talking about Europe where secularism is a serious obstacle to Christianity. I am really slow to second guess the clergy there, as an American layman where we have not yet reached that level of secularization. (yet!) I would think that if some of the things said here were said about one’s own bishop, it would not be considered appropriate.

 

[commenter]

I have two points. First, we must be careful not to equate the orthodox with the traditional, or the heterodox with the liberal. One can be orthodox and liberal, or heterodox and traditional.

Second, even assuming there is a correlation between orthodox and vocations, never assuming a causality between the two. I would rather think that there is a common causality that lead both to loss of doctrinal soundness and vocations. Specifically, I think secularism and the plethora of related changes could be the cause of both, especially since we are talking about Europe where secularism is a serious obstacle to Christianity. I am really slow to second guess the clergy there, as an American layman where we have not yet reached that level of secularization. (yet!) I would think that if some of the things said here were said about one’s own bishop, it would not be considered appropriate.

• Not all “traditional” types are orthodox. Some ignore the authority of the current magisterium, the current pope and current bishop.
• However all orthodox Catholics do consider the authority of tradition, as interpreted by the current magisterium.
• I agree it is hard to draw a direct cause-and-effect between traditional, and vocations, in a diocese. You can have a conservative bishop now, but there was a liberal bishop yesterday whose influence still lingers, and Catholics are influenced by the media and other variables.
  But you ****can ****draw conclusions from religious orders. For men’s and women’s communities, traditional orders are doing fairly well, sometimes very well. Liberal orders are almost without exception doing horrible.

“Liberal” can mean almost anything now, so it is hard to draw conclusions. It used to mean, open to change about things that can be changed; changing the policies, changing the traditions. Now, it sometimes means that, but often means opposition to the Magisterium; opposition to Sacred Tradition. All liberals I have met or heard in recent years are glued to the Media.