I only respond to facts. The article offered no support, names, or evidence. It could have been made up for all the documentation the writer gave.Cardinal Burke has said already that the four cardinals actually have many supporters.
In fact before AL was even released, the cardinals got a preview of it and 30 cardinals responded with worried questions to the Pope about some content of the document.
I share your thoughts.God bless - this takes an incredible amount of courage - more than most of us (at any level of the Church) possess. We need to support these four cardinals. And they are (1) within their rights, even obligation, here and (2) defending the integrity of the doctrine of the Church itself.
It is interesting how different Bishop Conferences or Dioceses around the world implement AL.Canon 332
If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.
In any case, it will never happen. Only a few cardinals think that the more liberal understandings of Amoris Laetitia are contrary to doctrine. Just look at what these Maltese bishops came up with. Now they may have one of the loosest instructions, at least at this point, but many other episcopal conferences are implementing Amoris Laetitia to allow for some form of internal forum that might allow for communion for some in irregular situations. In no case can a handful of cardinals or theologians deposed the Pope. They can talk to him though.
You will have to take that up with Wandile as am I.But in the case of Pope Francis, who out of the four Cardinals or anyone else in support of the dubia has expressed seriously that they seek to depose Pope Francis?
Originally Posted by Wandile View Post
Actually the formal correction will cause a lot of shockwaves. Let’s hope it doesn’t go there. Because after a formal correction, the next accusation is heresy and deposition of the Pope (if a pope falls into formal heresy then he relinquishes the papacy and can be deposed).
This is mere conjecture. Suarez simply offers an opinion and guess who is the one to ultimately decide whether such views of Suarez are heretical or not?Yes a poor cannot be deposed. However should the pope fall into formal heresy, he is no longer a catholic and only a catholic can be pope.
Thus in this situation he can be deposed. However, or rather shown to be in error and declared to be deposed if he loses he refuses to recant of his error or heresy.
John of St. Thomas, Suarez, Cajetan, and others eminent teachers of the faith all teach that a general council alone would be the competent authority to oversee the matter of an heretical Pope. John of St. Thomas explained why. He wrote:
“since the matter at hand concerns the universal Church, it must be overseen by the tribunal that represents the universal Church, which is that of a general council
He cites three historical examples to confirm the point:
*“This is indeed evident from the practice of the Church, for in the case [Pope] Marcellinus, who offered incense to idols, a synod was gathered together for the purpose of discussing this case, as is recorded in Cap. Hunc c, distinct. 11. And in the case of the schism in which there were three reputed pontiffs, the Council of Constance gathered for the purpose of settling that schism. And also in the case of Pope Symmachus, a council at Rome was gathered to treat those things which were presented to it. It is known, from the resources cited above, that the pontiffs, who, being accused of various crimes and wanting to excuse themselves of charges, did so in the presence of a council.” *
None of the four cardinals (nor any other ecclesiastic who supports the Dubia) have suggested that they intend to depose the Supreme Pontiff. Cardinal Burke has affirmed that the four cardinals will seek a private audience with the Pope and present their correction of Amoris Laetitia to him in camera caritatis. He has intimated - but not categorically stated - that they might make the correction public after that. As for the nature of the correction, he said this in an interview with Michael Matt of the Remnant:MJM: So what’s next, Your Eminence? If Pope Francis fails to answer your dubia, what’s the next course of action? You’ve spoken of the possibility of elevating this to a formal correction. But what exactly does that look like?I am aware of no person or group that has the authority from Christ to depose the Supreme Pontiff.
Do you?
You need to take that up with Wandile as I did.None of the four cardinals (nor any other ecclesiastic who supports the Dubia) have suggested that they intend to depose the Supreme Pontiff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandile View Post
Actually the formal correction will cause a lot of shockwaves. Let’s hope it doesn’t go there. Because after a formal correction, the next accusation is heresy and deposition of the Pope (if a pope falls into formal heresy then he relinquishes the papacy and can be deposed).
You are certainly free to react as you choose, I will feel absolutely no obligation to do anything other than support the rock of Peter just as Christ exhorted.And that’s it. If Pope Francis persists in upholding his interpretation of Amoris Laetitia as given in his private letter of September 2016 to the Argentinian bishops, then Catholics would be obliged to resist that interpretation
The English translation in L’O Romano its a long sentence…I found a link to the Maltese document.
ms.maltadiocese.org/WEBSITE/2017/PRESS%20RELEASES/Norms%20for%20the%20Application%20of%20Chapter%20VIII%20of%20AL.pdf
I can see why point 10 is causing concern. I have thought for the last year that communion *might *be allowed based on a person not being in a state of actual mortal sin, but not based on one’s conscience as out-lined in section 10. Also, I am concerned the the priest helping with the discernment in the internal forum is not more active in the decision. It is the belief of the person who is in the irregular situation that creates a right to the sacraments.
Why would I, and Catholics like me, bishops and priests like me (which I bet will be shown to be most of them this year) be obliged to resist what we think is right? Should we not rather resist the the wrong opinions that were implicit in the dubia? Except I won’t, because that is not my role as a layman. Also, just because I disagree with Cardinal Burke, I know his opinion, like that of Pope Francis is still orthodox. Orthodox Catholics can disagree and differ, you know.If Pope Francis persists in upholding his interpretation of Amoris Laetitia as given in his private letter of September 2016 to the Argentinian bishops, then Catholics would be obliged to resist that interpretation .
I read an article a few months back and I think they are, but moving more slowly. Sure a single bishop may have done his own thing, but the conference is still preparing to act nationally, though it is not binding on any individual bishop unless the authority of the Pope makes it so.I find it unfortunate that the US was unable to wait and reflect as a whole and come out with a single set of Guidelines…
I’m just saying there is historical precedent for popes being deposed by the Roman synod. It can happen but is rare. Today we are urged to resist a pope rather than a council because a council is more likely to cause a schism.This is mere conjecture. Suarez simply offers an opinion and guess who is the one to ultimately decide whether such views of Suarez are heretical or not?
A Council may well have very strong moral influence, but ultimately, as we all know, if the Council is not in union with the Pope then it is the Council that is not with Christ’s authority.
In any case we only speak with certainty of four disaffected Cardinals as pNewton states.
“Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations.”You are certainly free to react as you choose, I will feel absolutely no obligation to do anything other than support the rock of Peter just as Christ exhorted.
Of course. The majority of Catholics will in all likelihood end up endorsing the interpretations of AL as implemented by the bishops of Argentina (supported by the Pope), Malta, Atlantic Canada, etc. Communion will be given to remarried divorcees, assisted suicides and - inevitably - cohabiting homosexual and lesbian couples, with most wondering what the fuss is about.Why would I, and Catholics like me, bishops and priests like me (which I bet will be shown to be most of them this year) be obliged to resist what we think is right? Should we not rather resist the the wrong opinions that were implicit in the dubia? Except I won’t, because that is not my role as a layman. Also, just because I disagree with Cardinal Burke, I know his opinion, like that of Pope Francis is still orthodox. Orthodox Catholics can disagree and differ, you know.
What would happen to Amoris Laetitia if a formal correction of Pope Francis happens?Of course. The majority of Catholics will in all likelihood end up endorsing the interpretations of AL as implemented by the bishops of Argentina (supported by the Pope), Malta, Atlantic Canada, etc. Communion will be given to remarried divorcees, assisted suicides and - inevitably - cohabiting homosexual and lesbian couples, with most wondering what the fuss is about.
My point is that a Catholic who still takes the Magisterium seriously will have no choice but to resist these implementations. The principle of non-contradiction is in play here: one simply cannot wrap one’s head around Communion for those living in a state of grave sin and hang on to the constant teaching of the Church. Just can’t be done.
Agree.I share your thoughts.
I need to research this more, but I believe it was a private revelation to Sr. Lucia in the thirties or forties. I’ve been meaning to look into this.Our Lady told us (I think, please correct me) the final battle will be over the family?
It’s hard to say definitely on his because I don’t know how the Pope would argue that, how and if he would try and reconcile that with Catholic doctrine. But if he promoted a position that was seen to be truly heretical then as Cardinal Burke has said, “If a Pope would formally profess heresy he would cease, by that act, to be the Pope. It’s automatic. And so, that could happen.”IF Pope Francis clarifies AL and IF he defends the use of conscience to receive Communion, what/who can “veto” him?
As the previous poster mentioned, this seems to be a very dangerous slippery slope.