Cardinal Nichols: synod's final document insufficiently welcoming toward homosexuals [CC]

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Well, the “take away” line of that Gospel story is “go, and sin no more”. And that’s the message of the Church. We love everyone, we welcome everyone but we are going to keep saying “sin no more” whether a person’s sin is homosexual activity, adultery, anger or stealing. The Church can’t create what amounts to a “protected class” of homosexuals and not expect them to “sin no more”. Nor can the Church turn the other way when any sinner wants to “celebrate” or “value” their sins.
Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.:
Whom you would change you must first love, and they must know that you love them
I think that is a oft forgotten and yet very important thing to remember.

What gave Jesus the right to preach to the adulteress and why did she accept being lectured about morals from a man she had just met? He had established that he did care about her welfare. How did he establish that? He literally just saved her life. Without having established that he cared about her welfare she like the vast majority of people would have blown him off.

For someone to establish the needed to rapport for people to believe you love them, you need to demonstrate your love in a comprehensible way. It is entirely within our faith to preach God’s infinite love for mankind, mercy and redemption. Telling people that God loves them and so do we, that they are welcome to the Church is not the same as saying that they should step right up in to the communion line.
 
This is the first I have heard of it. It may be common to you but obviously I was not the only one to read that way. It was a question directly asked of me. Hardly, in the context of society.
The word “you” is a plural.
Since I linked the dictionary you would see that it is modern not a few decade old. Language does change meanings that is why a dictionary is used. What is being attempted here is to force a change.
The word idiot also happens to be in there
“a person affected with extreme mental retardation”
.
This is decades old thinking. Sodomy laws are archaic. You may believe there is a connotation but I would not make that connection.
Lawrence v. Texas was just over a decade ago, that is not ancient history.
You may hear but what do base such an unwarranted generalization?.
Mostly it gets used in fire and brimstone preaching about Sodom Gomorrah and how we should put all the gays on and island and watch them die off because they can’t breed.
I can’t think of any word that would convey a teaching. Comparing a word that is uncharitable to a person and a word that accurately describes a sin is comparing apples to oranges What I see is an attempt to make homosexuality an accepted way of life. I have never really used this word but now I realize that it must be used to fight this evil.
There are words, hylomorphism, transubstantiation, etc.
 
This is the first I have heard of it. It may be common to you but obviously I was not the only one to read that way. It was a question directly asked of me. Hardly, in the context of society.
How is a discussion of how terms change to be offensive and even become slurs not in the context of society? :confused:
Since I linked the dictionary you would see that it is modern not a few decade old. Language does change meanings that is why a dictionary is used. What is being attempted here is to force a change.
I looked through your posts and can’t find a link. I did however find a post where you pasted a definition. The definition seems correct:

“anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex

The vast majority of sodomites are heterosexual, and the vast majority of acts of sodomy are done between one man and one woman. Many of them married. If you have ever had oral or anal sex, regardless of the gender of the partner, then you are a sodomite.

This is why using it to implicitly refer to homosexuals is not only factually wrong - by doing it, you are actively singling out one group of sodomites as if they were worse than others. However, the vast majority of “sodomite marriages” are between man and woman. Because of this, using the term the way some conservatives do is ridiculous.

Lastly, the change is hardly forced - “sodomite” was not in common use even before the liberalization. People commonly used the “f” word and the “q” word, not the “s” word. The main change of language since the gay movement came into existence, has been getting rid of the “f” slur.
This is decades old thinking. Sodomy laws are archaic. You may believe there is a connotation but I would not make that connection.
/sigh.

The term “sodomy” is archaic. And people connect it with sodomy laws - it is the only context in which most people have ever heard the word used.

The connotation of a word is not determined by what connections you would make, but what connections people in general would make. Your statement is similar to saying things like “Segregation laws are archaic. You may believe the “n” word has a connotation to them, but I would not make that connection.”

But you see, that won’t work. You’re not alone in the world.
You may hear but what do base such an unwarranted generalization?
I base the (very warranted, by the way) generalization on the fact that every single person I’ve ever discussed this with except from extreme conservatives have told me that the word “sodomite” has those connotations to them. Additionally, they think of stoning, firebombing cities (at least if they’re read the Bible or heard a fire-and-brimstone sermon), lynching, and so on. You are better off using the “f” word - at least that is “merely” connected with violent bullies.
I can’t think of any word that would convey a teaching.
I can however think about words that would obscure a teaching, and hinder it from being conveyed; “sodomy” is one of them. Using it is the best way to ensure that the person you speak to may never get to learn what the Church actually teaches.
Comparing a word that is uncharitable to a person and a word that accurately describes a sin is comparing apples to oranges
But you see, “sodomy” does not accurately describe “homosexual sexual acts”. It accurately describes “oral or anal sex”, if the recipient knows the dictionary definition; which most recipients don’t. When the word then is used as if it means “homosexual sexual acts”, then it is not accurate. It is, additionally, not only uncharitable - it is offensive and a slur. You can’t just stick your head in the ground and pretend it’s not; you live in a society (I presume), and you cannot just pretend that language hasn’t changed since the 19th century.
What I see is an attempt to make homosexuality an accepted way of life. I have never really used this word but now I realize that it must be used to fight this evil.
:rolleyes:

Well, good luck with that.
 
Originally Posted by Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.
Whom you would change you must first love, and they must know that you love them
It is a **false gospel and neo-liberal theology **to place the primary focus of the spiritual on human “relationship” to others. The faithful are not therapists or counselors and their acceptance of the sinner must in no way attempt to replace what only God’s grace is capable of doing. If a sinner feels better about himself it cannot be just because he thinks he’s been accepted by society because that, by itself will do nothing to help him save his soul. The gospel is the radical surgery leading to healing and that can only be a private affair between the soul and God.

I find it very interesting that you would quote Martin Luther King above because he has been credited with advancing this Social Gospel which is an offshoot of “Black Liberation Theology.” How is it that it now seems to be creeping into Catholicism? It is deceptive and preaches that we should put aside all differences for the common good but it neither identifies sin nor offers any real solution to charitably help our neighbor by extracting him from the mire of eternal death.

I’m not buying it at all that our parishes snub and reject gays. So once again we ask, how are we not sufficiently welcoming them? What, in your opinion, would be a way to demonstrate love in a “comprehensible” way? What does that mean? Neither the gay advocates nor the Church seem to be able to answer this.
 
The way we express ideas is through words. When you start saying a word is insulting just because it accurately describe what you are engaging in than it isn’t time to shut down speech. This is just another attempt to make homosexuality just another option. It is misplaced charity.

Comparing a word that is uncharitable to a person and a word that accurately describes a sin is comparing apples to oranges What I see is an attempt to make homosexuality an accepted way of life.
Yes…it always, but always, comes back to this very thing.
 
The word “you” is a plural.
Not in the context he used it.

.
Lawrence v. Texas was just over a decade ago, that is not ancient history.
You make the assumption that the word is associated with the la only with the laws. That is an opinion of yours. My opinion is that it would be more associated with Sodom. It is the reason imo that the argument is made that the city was destroyed only for being inhospitable.
Mostly it gets used in fire and brimstone preaching about Sodom Gomorrah and how we should put all the gays on and island and watch them die off because they can’t breed
.
Really? I have never heard a Catholic priest talk about Sodom and Gomorrah not to mention a fire and brimstone homily:nope:
There are words, hylomorphism, transubstantiation, etc.
I could argue the point but I more agree with you than disagree.
 
I looked through your posts and can’t find a link. I did however find a post where you pasted a definition.
post 93
The term “sodomy” is archaic. And people connect it with sodomy laws - it is the only context in which most people have ever heard the word used
I base the (very warranted, by the way) generalization on the fact that every single person I’ve ever discussed this with except from extreme conservatives have told me that the word “sodomite” has those connotations to them. Additionally, they think of stoning, firebombing cities (at least if they’re read the Bible or heard a fire-and-brimstone sermon), lynching, and so on. You are better off using the “f” word - at least that is “merely” connected with violent bullies.
Your basing your generalization on a very limited bases. It doesn’t match my experience:shrug:
But you see, “sodomy” does not accurately describe “homosexual sexual acts”. It accurately describes “oral or anal sex”, if the recipient knows the dictionary definition; which most recipients don’t. When the word then is used as if it means “homosexual sexual acts”, then it is not accurate
.
I see, so it doesn’t describe them accurately? In what way is homosexual sexual acts different from the description?
It is, additionally, not only uncharitable - it is offensive and a slur. You can’t just stick your head in the ground and pretend it’s not;** you live **in a society (I presume), and you cannot just pretend that language hasn’t changed since the 19th century.
I suppose you aren’t talking directly to me??? This is meant for society in general?
Language changes but as I have already stated the change you are claiming is being forced. I speculate the reason is that homosexuals are trying to say that it is not a sin that it isn’t supported by Scripture and the term reminds people that it is.

I don’t find it a slur. I do find it interesting who is promoting it as being a slur.
 
The only reason this particular sin merits so much attention these days is that people with SSA who are actively engaged in political activity promoting the acceptance of the *sin *as non-sinful are causing be subject to be publicized a lot. I’m sure that back in the 70s I would have been trying to explain why the Church cannot accept “open marriage,” or in the late 90s/early 00s explaing why abortion should not be legal.
I believe you are confused re: SSA issues. No one can speak for all gays just as no one can speak for all heterosexuals but it is likely that most people are aware that there is political activity promoting SS marriage and other equal rights for gays. For the majority of gays it not about the faith based belief that certain acts are sinful. It should be obvious that not everyone has the same faith and same faith beliefs. It appears that there are some in the CC hierarchy that would like to change the Church’s attitude towards SSA but that is an internal issue of the CC. In the US everyone has the freedom to believe what they wish but not the freedom to disregard equal rights of others on the basis of their faith based beliefs.
 
I think that is a oft forgotten and yet very important thing to remember.

What gave Jesus the right to preach to the adulteress and why did she accept being lectured about morals from a man she had just met? He had established that he did care about her welfare. How did he establish that? He literally just saved her life. Without having established that he cared about her welfare she like the vast majority of people would have blown him off.

For someone to establish the needed to rapport for people to believe you love them, you need to demonstrate your love in a comprehensible way. It is entirely within our faith to preach God’s infinite love for mankind, mercy and redemption. Telling people that God loves them and so do we, that they are welcome to the Church is not the same as saying that they should step right up in to the communion line.
We already do a very good job of preaching God’s love and mercy and of welcoming everyone. What else can we possibly do, individually and as a Church, to be more loving without singling out active homosexuality as something that can be tolerated more than other sinful behavior?
 
Should the Churchs outreach to those who engage in homosexual behavior be different thn their outreach to others who engage in sinful sexual behaviors?
 
Should the Churchs outreach to those who engage in homosexual behavior be different thn their outreach to others who engage in sinful sexual behaviors?
I hate to be cynical but a lot of push against the Catholic Church by Gay groups has to do with what the Catholic Church believes regarding sin. I don’t see that changing because I think most of the political Gay groups want total acceptance. The Catholic Church can’t embrace the sins of anyone regardless. They can’t embrace my sins, your sins or anyone’s sins.

In my heart, there is nothing wrong with letting anyone and everyone know they are welcome and even pointing out to certain groups that they are welcome is wise.

We are all sinful and I know my pastor loves me and I know my church loves me. The Church can love anyone regardless of their sins. The Church has the duty to remind me to try and live a holy life and has that duty to all. Anyone else in the Church, their pastor needs to love them as Christ does and the Church needs to love them too, regardless of their sins. The Church has the same duty to remind everyone that they need to repent and live a holy life.
 
I hate to be cynical but a lot of push against the Catholic Church by Gay groups has to do with what the Catholic Church believes regarding sin. I don’t see that changing because I think most of the political Gay groups want total acceptance. The Catholic Church can’t embrace the sins of anyone regardless. They can’t embrace my sins, your sins or anyone’s sins.

In my heart, there is nothing wrong with letting anyone and everyone know they are welcome and even pointing out to certain groups that they are welcome is wise.

We are all sinful and I know my pastor loves me and I know my church loves me. The Church can love anyone regardless of their sins. The Church has the duty to remind me to try and live a holy life and has that duty to all. Anyone else in the Church, their pastor needs to love them as Christ does and the Church needs to love them too, regardless of their sins. The Church has the same duty to remind everyone that they need to repent and live a holy life.
That was my point. The Church reaches out to all sinners who are ready to repent. I don’t see why all this furor about reaching out specifically to Homosexuals. Especially since most such calls are predicated on the mistaken belief the Church is bigoted and its member regularly abuse homosexuals . One would think that at the start of every Mass instead of asking for the forgiveness of sins we asked all homosexual to leave!

What we are really seeing is an attempt to remake the Church in accordance with the mores of our culture-that is that the only real sin is believing there is sin.
 
That was my point. The Church reaches out to all sinners who are ready to repent. I don’t see why all this furor about reaching out specifically to Homosexuals. Especially since most such calls are predicated on the mistaken belief the Church is bigoted and its member regularly abuse homosexuals . One would think that at the start of every Mass instead of asking for the forgiveness of sins we asked all homosexual to leave!

What we are really seeing is an attempt to remake the Church in accordance with the mores of our culture-that is that the only real sin is believing there is sin.
I’m all for being welcoming to anyone and any sinner would and will be better off being in Church rather than out of Church. As calling anyone out on their sins, I hope that doesn’t come to be because it won’t belong before they’re calling me out on mine.
 
I’m all for being welcoming to anyone and any sinner would and will be better off being in Church rather than out of Church. As calling anyone out on their sins, I hope that doesn’t come to be because it won’t belong before they’re calling me out on mine.
Me too!
 
Should the Churchs outreach to those who engage in homosexual behavior be different thn their outreach to others who engage in sinful sexual behaviors?
What’s different about sexual behavior that makes it different than other sins?
 
What’s different about sexual behavior that makes it different than other sins?
Many of the Church’s teaching documents categorize sins in groups. Sexual sins are grouped together as sins against marriage or sins against the 6th commandment. Sins that involve violence are likewise grouped together as are sins against the faith (heresy, apostasy, etc.). Since the synod’s focus was the family, it is natural that sexual sins, which include homosexual actions, cohabitation, adultery, etc. got a lot of focus.
 
It is a **false gospel and neo-liberal theology **to place the primary focus of the spiritual on human “relationship” to others. The faithful are not therapists or counselors and their acceptance of the sinner must in no way attempt to replace what only God’s grace is capable of doing. If a sinner feels better about himself it cannot be just because he thinks he’s been accepted by society because that, by itself will do nothing to help him save his soul. The gospel is the radical surgery leading to healing and that can only be a private affair between the soul and God.
No one here is pushing liberal or neo-liberal theology, I’m personally a fan of Joseph-Marie, comte de Maistre who you’d have to be utterly deranged to claim is anything remotely close to center left.

Preach the gospel and if necessary use words. There are enough vocal Christians out there that all conservative Christians look like hateful people attacking LGBT people, perhaps just like how there are enough vocal gay people make it look all gay people are hateful people attacking Christians.
I find it very interesting that you would quote Martin Luther King above because he has been credited with advancing this Social Gospel which is an offshoot of “Black Liberation Theology.” How is it that it now seems to be creeping into Catholicism? It is deceptive and preaches that we should put aside all differences for the common good but it neither identifies sin nor offers any real solution to charitably help our neighbor by extracting him from the mire of eternal death.
I quoted Martin Luther King Jr. because he is a well known and well regarded social reformer.

Black liberation theology is an offshoot of the Social Gospel.

I do not support either the Social Gospel or Black Liberation Theology.
I’m not buying it at all that our parishes snub and reject gays. So once again we ask, how are we not sufficiently welcoming them? What, in your opinion, would be a way to demonstrate love in a “comprehensible” way? What does that mean? Neither the gay advocates nor the Church seem to be able to answer this.
I hear much the same thing from people about divorced people, but that tune changes fairly quickly if they become divorced.
Not in the context he used it.
How do you know how that person meant it?
You make the assumption that the word is associated with the la only with the laws. That is an opinion of yours. My opinion is that it would be more associated with Sodom. It is the reason imo that the argument is made that the city was destroyed only for being inhospitable.
Most people have a very poor knowledge of Scripture and for gay people laws used to attack them until recently are much more vividly in their mind.
Really? I have never heard a Catholic priest talk about Sodom and Gomorrah not to mention a fire and brimstone homily:nope:
I’m talking about Protestant preachers not Catholic priests. The average person has heard about far more hateful speeches from Protestants than speeches by Catholic priests.
I could argue the point but I more agree with you than disagree.
Okay.
We already do a very good job of preaching God’s love and mercy and of welcoming everyone. What else can we possibly do, individually and as a Church, to be more loving without singling out active homosexuality as something that can be tolerated more than other sinful behavior?
We do a very poor job of preaching. Lots of Catholics act preachy and sanctimonious, but it is very seldom that I hear the Good News preached.
Should the Churchs outreach to those who engage in homosexual behavior be different thn their outreach to others who engage in sinful sexual behaviors?
Yes and no, we should treat them equally however different people should be evangelized in different ways.
That was my point. The Church reaches out to all sinners who are ready to repent. I don’t see why all this furor about reaching out specifically to Homosexuals. Especially since most such calls are predicated on the mistaken belief the Church is bigoted and its member regularly abuse homosexuals . One would think that at the start of every Mass instead of asking for the forgiveness of sins we asked all homosexual to leave!

What we are really seeing is an attempt to remake the Church in accordance with the mores of our culture-that is that the only real sin is believing there is sin.
In general I see very little evangelization by the Church.
 
Nothing. So why do we need special outreach for homosexual sinners?
Honestly, because I think a lot of sinners in the Church treat those sinners as somehow worse, similar to the Pharisee and tax collector in Luke 18.
 
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