Cardinal Pell charged and must return

[Lion_IRC]

Actually, I’d say that “many” Priests have been found guilty is an overstatement. When you compare the number to how many Priests there are, it is a very small percentage. And, you also have to remember that, by far, the vast majority of those found guilty were from cases that stretch back decades.

This ^^^ is true.

Sadly it is a much greater % than for any other institution examined by the Royal Commission in Australia.

7% of priests working during 1950 - 2009 have been accused.

This ^^^ is not

In 1971 there were 3895 priests in Australia.
That’s just one year!
7% of 3895 = 273 priests

Over 60 years the total number of individual Catholic priests is stated as 116,153
7% of 116,153 = 8,130 priests!

The royal commission’s report found that of the 1,880 alleged perpetrators from the Catholic Church, (clergy and non-clergy) only 572 were priests which is less than 1% of 116,153

Note also that many/most of the allegations referred to by the Royal Commission have never been tested in a court of law - they are not convictions. Moreover, many of the the accusers who made claims at the Royal Commission did so anonymously and (they know) their claims will never be tested in court because the police can’t charge dead people.

 

[Lion_IRC]

StudentMI;14744807:

Lion IRC;14744384:

How DARE you deign to insinuate that Cardinal Pell ‘protected’ pedophiles or that he has demurred from facing his slanderous accusers! (Accusers who have conveniently waited decades.)
Go home???

Was Jesus ‘hiding’ in Gethsemene?
“…Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would an outlaw?”

God bless Fr George.
May God give him strength to face the spittal and hatred to which he willingly offers himself.

David Ridsdale. 60 minutes interview. Peter Saunders. Look them up.
I don’t need to. I’m very well acquainted with subject matter in question.

StudentMI;14744807:

Not my fault you haven’t done your homework.

Oh, you mean anyone who disagrees with you must not know the facts?
You are being grossly disrespectful of Cardinal Pell’s entitlement to the presumption of innocence - ordering him to “go home” as if he has ever tried to avoid testifying in his own defence against this type of anonymous slander.

It’s like you think he was deliberately moved to the Vatican to try and hide him from authorities.
I wonder who you think appointed him to that position in the Vatican.
Are you equally shouting at Pope Francis to “send him home”?
You think there’s a cover-up conspiracy?

Here is the guy who was accused of abusing an alleged victim and when Cardinal Pell’s lawyers pointed out to the accuser that George Pell’s passport proved he wasn’t even in Australia at the time of the alleged event, the accuser suddenly decided it must have been a case of mistaken identity.

Lion IRC;14748332:

StudentMI;14744807:

And comparing him to Jesus? Please.

Please what?
We should ALL compare ourselves to Jesus.
George Pell has openly confronted his accusers without fear.
Like Jesus in Gethsemene, charges against George Pell could have been laid anytime. Why the deliberate delay? Why the show trial?

Some Catholics paint Pell as an upstanding man who has never done anything the least bit questionable who is being smeared by the media for his conservative views… And you call me a conspiracy theorist?

I’m sorry but that’s too laughable to respond too. Thanks for the laugh, though.

You think this is funny?

 

[Rau]

Personally I would rather see things like this handled inside the church and secular authorities not involved at all.

On what possible basis could placing clergy outside the law be acceptable to society? Various Catholic archbishops giving testimony at the recent Royal Commission were also clear that the proper course of action in sexual abuse cases is to report the matter to the police.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Ballarat lawyer Ingrid Irwin, who represents two of Cardinal Pell’s accusers, has warned her clients that she is “not confident of a conviction.”

Maybe that’s because her clients waited so long to decide whether or not to make the accusation.

The article: smh.com.au/national/george-pells-alleged-victims-welcome-charges-20170629-gx11gt.html

“For so long, these men were too afraid to come forward because of the Catholic Church’s power, but this has shown George Pell is not above the law,” Ms Irwin said.

What nonsense! The Catholic Church in Australia, and Cardinal Pell in particular, have been on the losing end of media and public opinion for twenty years now.

The Church has issued numerous mea-culpas, and gone further and further in giving benefit of the doubt to accusers. She has no power to silence or punish accusers. Numerous victims have had their cases heard privately and/or publicly (at their discretion) and received financial compensation.

The media have been looking for something to stick on Pell, and individuals with any allegation against Pell have received extensive, sympathetic hearing.

For anyone with a case of actual abuse against Pell the cheer squad was waiting for them, and compensation from the Church also. You could probably get tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars for an “exclusive interview” on prime TV, and still have your time in court and money from the Church. Or, you could just take it to the Church, privately, if you prefer.

It sounds like this lawyer is readying the public for an acquittal, and then a new rage will start up against the “denial of justice” and the “power of the Catholic Church”. I don’t think an acquittal will see the end of it for Pell, the Church, or justice.

 

[Rau]

In 1971 there were 3895 priests in Australia.
That’s just one year!
7% of 3895 = 273 priests

Over 60 years the total number of individual Catholic priests is stated as 116,153
7% of 116,153 = 8,130 priests!

The royal commission’s report found that of the 1,880 alleged perpetrators from the Catholic Church, (clergy and non-clergy) only 572 were priests which is less than 1% of 116,153

Note also that many/most of the allegations referred to by the Royal Commission have never been tested in a court of law - they are not convictions. Moreover, many of the the accusers who made claims at the Royal Commission did so anonymously and (they know) their claims will never be tested in court because the police can’t charge dead people.

The 116,153 figure is priests serving in the US, not Australia. This is from the report I quoted earlier:

"Seven per cent of priests ministering in the 60-year period [in **Australia] have been accused of child sex offences.

This is an even starker figure to similar research carried out in the US which found that from 1950 through June 2015, 5.6 per cent of the 116,153 priests who worked have been accused of child sexual abuse."

So the 7% in Australia is distressingly similar to the 5.6% in USA.

 

[Rau]

The article: smh.com.au/national/george-pells-alleged-victims-welcome-charges-20170629-gx11gt.html

What nonsense! The Catholic Church in Australia, and Cardinal Pell in particular, have been on the losing end of media and public opinion for twenty years now.

The Church has issued numerous mea-culpas, and gone further and further in giving benefit of the doubt to accusers. She has no power to silence or punish accusers. Numerous victims have had their cases heard privately and/or publicly (at their discretion) and received financial compensation.

The media have been looking for something to stick on Pell, and individuals with any allegation against Pell have received extensive, sympathetic hearing.

For anyone with a case of actual abuse against Pell the cheer squad was waiting for them, and compensation from the Church also. You could probably get tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars for an “exclusive interview” on prime TV, and still have your time in court and money from the Church. Or, you could just take it to the Church, privately, if you prefer.

It sounds like this lawyer is readying the public for an acquittal, and then a new rage will start up against the “denial of justice” and the “power of the Catholic Church”. I don’t think an acquittal will see the end of it for Pell, the Church, or justice.

Many victims of clergy abuse chose not to take the matter to the police and I presume they simply wanted to avoid becoming a public spectacle. As you say, that has nothing to do with an alleged “fear of the power of the Catholic Church”. Regrettably, many who dealt direct with the Church over their abuse found that experience highly unsatisfactory.

 

[Lion_IRC]

The 116,153 figure is priests serving in the US, not Australia. This is from the report I quoted earlier:

"Seven per cent of priests ministering in the 60-year period [in **Australia]

have been accused of child sex offences.

This is an even starker figure to similar research carried out in the US which found that from 1950 through June 2015, 5.6 per cent of the 116,153 priests who worked have been accused of child sexual abuse."

So the 7% in Australia is distressingly similar to the 5.6% in USA.

Thanks for the correction.
I shall research the Australin number.

 

[Lion_IRC]

If 572 supposedly accused priests equals 7% of the total number of priests from 1950 to 2010 that means the Catholic Church in Australia had no more than 8171 ordained priests over a 60 year period!
There are currently how many ordained priests in Australia?
3,085?

catholicaustralia.com.au/church-in-australia/facts-figures

Can it really be true that there were only 8171 priests covering a 60 period?

…that’ suggests an extraodinarily low attrition rate.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Margaret Leland Smith, a researcher at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, says her review of the data suggests the comparative number for child sexual abuse in the general population is 20%

newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Here is a link to the Royal Commission. It has all the figures on the Australian story.

Please remember this case against Cardinal Pell is not about the Royal Commission. It’s not about any Risdales.
childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/261be84b-bec0-4440-b294-57d3e7de1234/case-study-50,-february-2017,-sydney

Yes the figure of 7% in some Diocese is true.
This happened.

On another note
Cardinal Pell has hired top silks to represent him. I imagine the prosecution side will too, now.

 

[Rau]

If 572 supposedly accused priests equals 7% of the total number of priests from 1950 to 2010 that means the Catholic Church in Australia had no more than 8171 ordained priests over a 60 year period!
There are currently how many ordained priests in Australia?
3,085?

catholicaustralia.com.au/church-in-australia/facts-figures

Can it really be true that there were only 8171 priests covering a 60 period?

…that’ suggests an extraodinarily low attrition rate.

The population of Australia is about 24mill and the US 326mill. So if you compare the 8171 to the US priest count (quoted earlier) it seems to be the right ball park.

 

[Rau]

Margaret Leland Smith, a researcher at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, says her review of the data suggests the comparative number for child sexual abuse in the general population is 20%

newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

The article quoted a number of figures including 10% and “closer to” 20%.

Certainly sexual abuse is most commonly found within families, where proximity to children and trust is greatest. Institutional cases have the dimiension that one person has access to large numbers of children and over extended periods. I think we would expect the rate of claims against priests and religious to be better than average. 7% (and figures far higher than that in various religious orders) appears very far from what we should expect.

 

[abucs]

Margaret Leland Smith, a researcher at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, says her review of the data suggests the comparative number for child sexual abuse in the general population is 20%

newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

We have problems in the education system too.

Article (USA)
Video (USA)

I have noticed with the Australian press that they often move very quickly from abuse cases, to criticising celibacy rules as unnatural to criticising an authoritarian male only priesthood to demanding the equality of women priests. This seems to be the playbook for anti church feminists (including those claiming to be Catholic).

I think with the church, it has been (if you pardon the pun) emasculated with typical criticism of being harsh, rigid or authoritarian. As a result I suspect that in the church too many have had the ‘who am I to judge’ mentality and an aversion to be strong and judgemental. In short I see the church has been too weak to enforce its standards and this has created a lax, liberal attitude which not only caused people in their millions to walk away from the church but also was not strong enough in judging and getting rid of some disgusting characters that the church should have used her authority to harshly and rigidly move against.

 

[Rau]

I see the church…was not strong enough in judging and getting rid of some disgusting characters that the church should have used her authority to harshly and rigidly move against.

Undoubtedly there are/were bishops who were grossly negligent in their response to transgressions by priests. Of course, a significant proportion of those are now dead.

 

[Rau]

We have problems in the education system too.

Article (USA).

Not much data reported in that article. The recent Royal Commission in Australia dealt with all institutional abuse in Australia, and from what I recall public schools were not much featured at all - meaning allegations against public school teachers were small in number. Various State institutions did feature, but State schools not so much.

 

[pnewton]

"Seven per cent of priests ministering in the 60-year period [in **Australia]

have been accused of child sex offences. I do not know what this has to do with Cardinal Pell, but I am not surprised in the least that as more media attention has been directed toward this whole situation there has been a dramatic rise in accusations against priests. Too much of the data though presents the dates of the alleged occurrence and not the date of the accusation. Statistics can be a tool of misinformation as well as a tool of information. If these national conventions wanted to know what was happening in an unbiased matter, the dates of accusations could be analyzed as well, compared with the dates of the alleged abuse and the increase of media coverage of the accusations as well as coverage of successful lawsuits and the money awarded.

The thing is, neither the sinfulness of priests, nor the greed of humanity should be dismissed lightly.

 

[Rau]

I do not know what this has to do with Cardinal Pell, but I am not surprised in the least that as more media attention has been directed toward this whole situation there has been a dramatic rise in accusations against priests. Too much of the data though presents the dates of the alleged occurrence and not the date of the accusation. Statistics can be a tool of misinformation as well as a tool of information. If these national conventions wanted to know what was happening in an unbiased matter, the dates of accusations could be analyzed as well, compared with the dates of the alleged abuse and the increase of media coverage of the accusations as well as coverage of successful lawsuits and the money awarded.

The thing is, neither the sinfulness of priests, nor the greed of humanity should be dismissed lightly.

In the case of the Australian royal commission, the analysis of the allegations, including when the allegations were made, when the alleged abuse occurred, by whom, where, age of the victims, etc etc has been analyzed in depth and is publically available. There is a well known long lag time between abuse and allegations.

 

[Franze]

I trust in Cardinal Pell, I think that he is innocent, I hope the responsabilities would be solved and if he is innocent, I want the same level of noise like this.

 

[pnewton]

In the case of the Australian royal commission, the analysis of the allegations, including when the allegations were made, when the alleged abuse occurred, by whom, where, age of the victims, etc etc has been analyzed in depth and is publically available. There is a well known long lag time between abuse and allegations.

I am reading the report.

childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/policy-and-research/our-research/published-research/analysis-of-claims-made-with-respect-to-catholic-c

I found the average time lag to be 33 years between the date the accuser claims he was abused and the time he reported the abuse. Yet I could not find any data on the dates of the claims themselves, independent of the abuse. In other words, if the greater lag was from those who claimed they were abused 40 years ago, versus shorter lag from those who claim they were abused 20 years ago, then that is indicative that the increase of sexual abuse accusations may have a cause other than actual sexual abuse. I should not have just mentioned greed earlier, though that might be one cause. The human memory is also notoriously unreliable, often filling in gaps and creating memory artifacts, even with a feeling of certainty, with no basis in fact. This is not conjecture but a know psychological phenomena. It should not be dismissed as possible contributor to the rise of sexual assault accusations, especially if statistically information shows accusations to be uncharacteristically clustered together.

Add on - The average claimant received $141,000.

 

[pnewton]

I trust in Cardinal Pell, I think that he is innocent, I hope the responsabilities would be solved and if he is innocent, I want the same level of noise like this.

Just to clarify my own position in light of my post above. I neither trust, nor distrust him. I have no doubt Satan could wiggle into tight places, both in one’s soul, and in the Church at large. Even taking a small percentage of child predators who become priest, either to escape their demons or to exploit the position, it should be expected that a bishop or two might be a child abuser. It should also be acknowledged there is a statistical probability a Cardinal is one of them, with the current college alone standing at 252.