Cardinal Pell charged and must return

[Rau]

…And yes, Cardinal Pell is looking forward to his day in court to prove his innocence.

No doubt his alleged victims/survivors are also looking forward to their day in court.

While bravado and legal tactics may demand both parties say this, and one or both statements might be true, you don’t really know if either statement is true.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

While bravado and legal tactics may demand both parties say this, and one or both statements might be true, you don’t really know if either statement is true.

I don’t see any reason for either party to lie. Do you?
This has been on the table for some time.

And Cardinal Pell’s team will have to negotiate multiple charges as required.

There won’t be too many legal shenanigans going on. Both sides have silks for the first case.

And the entire thing will be very transparent if it goes to trial. Power play and dishonesty from either side will forever cast doubt, something neither can afford.

 

[kmaaj]

The Biblical standard, whatever it may be, is totally irrelevant in the Court.

Further, I strongly suspect even in biblical times public opinion strongly influenced matters of this sort.

In any event, the Australian Courts will deal with the matter as they should. As to Philadelphia, rather than blame the courts, any blame for a skewed verdict (if it was skewed and not simply to your disliking) should be placed with clerics and hierarchs who did and/or covered up these horrific acts.

I’m all for facts over emotion, johnny.

In Philly, the Shero/Englehardt case was swayed by emotion and mob mentality. This is irrefutable to everyone except those that place hyperbolized emotional appeal over the facts at hand.

There are plenty of facts on hand that indicate the same thing is happening in Victoria.

 

[kmaaj]

“Not guilty” does not equal “innocent.” They just can’t prove it the to standards of a criminal trial. It doesn’t mean that Pell or any of the other hosts of pedophiles is “innocent.”

These cases–any sexual assault cases–are notoriously hard to “prove” since there are generally no witnesses, no confession, and guess what! After 45 years or so no forensic evidence. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t take place, are a concoction of anti-Catholic zealots, or are based on false memories.

Some people here are victim-blaming. “Why didn’t these people come forward 40 years ago?” etc. If you have to ask that, you have no empathy or compassion. Put yourself in their position–a 10-year-old boy or girl being molested by the trusted family priest. How likely would it be that you would come forward? Same with cases of rape. And the victims think they are somehow “guilty.” That makes it just that much worse. Disgusting.

Your last paragraph is pure speculation and appeal to emotion. I have no use for it, and neither does our Lord.

Before you can call them “victims”, you have to 1st establish that they were truly victimized. In my diocese alone, 3 priests mounted a vigorous defense and established their innocence. Yet the very existence of the accusations ruined their livelihoods. Their ministries gone. In those cases, my empathy or compassion is not with the accusers, but with the priests. In all 3 cases those priests are better men than me, because they DO have empathy and compassion for their accusers. I have to work at it.

 

[Rau]

I don’t see any reason for either party to lie. Do you?

I could cynically remark - “hey, of course not, lies are never told in legal fights”.

There may be no lying by anybody. There may be lying by some or all parties. There may be honest mistakes by one or more parties. The point is - we don’t know.

 

[Rau]

Before you can call them “victims”, you have to 1st establish that they were truly victimized. In my diocese alone, 3 priests mounted a vigorous defense and established their innocence. Yet the very existence of the accusations ruined their livelihoods. Their ministries gone. In those cases, my empathy or compassion is not with the accusers, but with the priests. In all 3 cases those priests are better men than me, because they DO have empathy and compassion for their accusers. I have to work at it.

That’s right, and to point out that individuals raising an accusation do make mistakes is not to assert that no priest ever committed a crime.

I think it was Pell himself who was accused of some act at a particular place (where he lived). And when it was investigated, it was determined that he had never lived at the location in question. Mistakes happen.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I could cynically remark - “hey, of course not, lies are never told in legal fights”.

There may be no lying by anybody. There may be lying by some or all parties. There may be honest mistakes by one or more parties. The point is - we don’t know.

Well you know there is a thing called perjury- lying under oath. So I guess we will find out.

Erika spirit makes an excellent point about people waiting decades to come forward. It’s a proven fact.

Cardinal Pell will be walking a path in the diocese he is charged in first, that has a proven, prosecuted institutional child abuse history, whose clergy/religious crminal responsiblity rate for these crimes is 7% .

Given he is treading the boards of defence in a diocese who experienced 7% of its clergy/religious abusing children…you can’t blame any negative response like oh another pedo Priest, is this ever going to stop.

But there are those who say, not him, not possible,
or
let’s wait and allow the justice system to do its job before the lynching.

So this is a bit more complicated then public opinion is x y or z and trying to attribute public opinion to political factioning.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Here you go Rau

"Cardinal George Pell has been filmed by a member of the public on a stopover in Singapore, apparently on his way back to Australia.

Pell is due to face court in Melbourne later this month on historical sexual assault charges.

Victoria Police have alleged the charges involve multiple complainants.

A member of the public filmed a casually dressed Pell sitting outside an ice-cream shop before asking if he was innocent.

“I just called my mother and she wants to know if you are innocent,” the bystander asks.

Pell replied: “Tell her that I am.”

From.

abc.net.au/news/2017-07-08/cardinal-george-pell-spotted-in-singapore-en-route-to-australia/8690992

The senior Catholic figure has maintained his innocence and said he is looking forward to returning to Australia to clear his name.

Maybe he is reading this thread…

 

[Rau]

Rose - I really don’t know what point you are making in the last two posts. Certainly you are repeating many things you have said before.

 

[Lion_IRC]

A member of the public filmed a casually dressed Pell sitting outside an ice-cream shop before asking if he was innocent.

“I just called my mother and she wants to know if you are innocent,” the bystander asks.

Pell replied: “Tell her that I am.”

From.

abc.net.au/news/2017-07-08/cardinal-george-pell-spotted-in-singapore-en-route-to-australia/8690992

The senior Catholic figure has maintained his innocence and said he is looking forward to returning to Australia to clear his name.

Maybe he is reading this thread…

Cardinal Pell emphatically states that he is innocent.
And if someone says they don’t believe him, they are calling him a liar.

 

[Rau]

Cardinal Pell emphatically states that he is innocent.
And if someone says they don’t believe him, they are calling him a liar.

Lion - there are opposing parties here. The accusers claim X (a criminal act) happened. The accused claims X did not happen. Either someone(s) lies, or someone(s) is making an honest mistake.

 

[panevino]

Here you go Rau

"Cardinal George Pell has been filmed by a member of the public on a stopover in Singapore, apparently on his way back to Australia.

Pell is due to face court in Melbourne later this month on historical sexual assault charges.

Victoria Police have alleged the charges involve multiple complainants.

A member of the public filmed a casually dressed Pell sitting outside an ice-cream shop before asking if he was innocent.

“I just called my mother and she wants to know if you are innocent,” the bystander asks.

Pell replied: “Tell her that I am.”

From.

abc.net.au/news/2017-07-08/cardinal-george-pell-spotted-in-singapore-en-route-to-australia/8690992

The senior Catholic figure has maintained his innocence and said he is looking forward to returning to Australia to clear his name.

Maybe he is reading this thread…

The above news article and in particular this one, plays into the Australian pshyce of pedophiles taking trips to “Asia” like Thailand etc…
“Taking a break…” insinuating a holiday
news.com.au/world/cardinal-pell-in-singapore-before-returning-to-australia-to-fight-sex-offence-charges/news-story/c91fd63a09a9be48b6e437920e511c37

“…CARDINAL George Pell has been spotted taking a break in Asia before returning to Australia to fight historical sex offences…”

Singapore is a typical stopover for the Italian flight to Australia (I did it with my parents years ago)

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Rose - I really don’t know what point you are making in the last two posts. Certainly you are repeating many things you have said before.

Hmm, perhaps I must keep repeating myself till I manage to get my point across. Thanks for the tip!

On another note, our wonderful humble Bishop has started preparing us for the shite storm beginning in…3…2…1

Our Bishop read part of a beautiful hymn today that bought tears to a few eyes. It was all about supporting each other and, I am sure, not judging.

I think our Bishop is a living saint

 

[pnewton]

Some people here are victim-blaming. “Why didn’t these people come forward 40 years ago?” etc. If you have to ask that, you have no empathy or compassion.

It is perfectly understandable why the victims did not come forward at that time. Even after they were an adult and ceased to be in danger, it is understandable that they did not come forward at that time. However, that was a choice with consequences. It is not victim-blaming to acknowledge that the accused must be afforded a fair trial and time makes convictions impossible. It is also not victim-blaming to understand that memory is a slippery thing, even in the short term and we must never get to where we are punishing people based on recollections without some physical evidence. It is also not victim blaming to recognize that some people are greedy enough to make stuff up. Just like a few priest can taint the Catholic Church, a few false accusers can taint the problem of child sexual abuse.

 

[billsannie]

It is perfectly understandable why the victims did not come forward at that time. Even after they were an adult and ceased to be in danger, it is understandable that they did not come forward at that time. However, that was a choice with consequences. It is not victim-blaming to acknowledge that the accused must be afforded a fair trial and time makes convictions impossible. It is also not victim-blaming to understand that memory is a slippery thing, even in the short term and we must never get to where we are punishing people based on recollections without some physical evidence. It is also not victim blaming to recognize that some people are greedy enough to make stuff up. Just like a few priest can taint the Catholic Church, a few false accusers can taint the problem of child sexual abuse.

This is quite true. And yes, a fair trial will be difficult to obtain, if not impossible. But if there was even one crime committed, crimes such as these cry out for justice, even justice long delayed. Remember, even if Cardinal Pell was innocent, it was his brother clergy who created this situation. Unfortunately, their sin was so egregious it seems that even their innocent brethren will have to suffer.

 

[Rau]

… it seems that even their innocent brethren will have to suffer.

Which would be far from justice.

 

[pnewton]

This is quite true. And yes, a fair trial will be difficult to obtain, if not impossible. But if there was even one crime committed, crimes such as these cry out for justice, even justice long delayed. Remember, even if Cardinal Pell was innocent, it was his brother clergy who created this situation. Unfortunately, their sin was so egregious it seems that even their innocent brethren will have to suffer.

That is the nature of sin. It affects more than ourselves. I am sure Cardinal Pell must have meditated upon this same thing, though he also has to consider if any of his actions or failure to act might have contributed to children being hurt. That might also be a burden he must bear, even if there is no violation of the law or deliberate sinful action. Leadership and authority can care a tremendous burden.

No, it is not just, but it is the nature of this fallen world.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This is quite true. And yes, a fair trial will be difficult to obtain, if not impossible. But if there was even one crime committed, crimes such as these cry out for justice, even justice long delayed. Remember, even if Cardinal Pell was innocent, it was his brother clergy who created this situation. Unfortunately, their sin was so egregious it seems that even their innocent brethren will have to suffer.

The thing that I can’t get over is. True or not, these are serious enough to warrent international jurisdiction issues. And a free country with a sound legal system has reason to follow through with proceedings against a high ranking Catholic prelate. This is not a surprise. These didn’t come out of the blue. So why the status, why the ranking and position of the prelate!?

 

[pnewton]

The thing that I can’t get over is. True or not, these are serious enough to warrent international jurisdiction issues. And a free country with a sound legal system has reason to follow through with proceedings against a high ranking Catholic prelate. This is not a surprise. These didn’t come out of the blue. So why the status, why the ranking and position of the prelate!?

Because it is common courtesy to refer to a Cardinal by title, just like one refers to a doctor with that title.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

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