Cardinal Piacenza explains 'crisis' of Catholic priesthood

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Thank you for your response. But I do have to say that it is quite a stretch from a seamless garment which Jesus wore to fulfill the scripture that his garments would would not be divided and lots would be cast for them to justifying ermine and other garish outfits for the Pope.
I think you’re making up distinctions to fit your own views. Jesus was in possession of a garment that poor people would not have had. It was considered so valuable that the soldiers didn’t want to tear it.
In a similar manner, precious perfume and oil were poured upon Jesus at one point as a sign of a woman’s love for Him and His ministry.

The vestments and clerical attire of the Holy Father is a recognition of the value of his office and not necessarily the person.
Furthermore, how do you know some rich person gave the seamless garment to Jesus? My nun in third grade said that Mary wove it for him. How do you know that someone donated the Pope’s outfits?
In Luke 8:3 we are told that Jesus had many things provided for him by those of means.
And even if they did, should not the Pope have set an example and refused them? We just don’t know the details.
Why? Its human nature to donate our best to that which we think is important. The role of the Papacy is indeed important…
Matthew 23: 1-12
In spite of all the verbal and mental gymnastics to justify the opposite, don’t you in your deepest heart of heart believe what Jesus said is true?
I’m sorry but I think you are the one involved in verbal and mental gymnastics to justify your view. Matthew 23 has little to do with the issue at hand. While it indeed is a warning against self interested indulgence it doesn’t negate all reception of gifts or symbolism of office…
 
I think you’re making up distinctions to fit your own views. Jesus was in possession of a garment that poor people would not have had. It was considered so valuable that the soldiers didn’t want to tear it.
In a similar manner, precious perfume and oil were poured upon Jesus at one point as a sign of a woman’s love for Him and His ministry.

The vestments and clerical attire of the Holy Father is a recognition of the value of his office and not necessarily the person.

In Luke 8:3 we are told that Jesus had many things provided for him by those of means.

Why? Its human nature to donate our best to that which we think is important. The role of the Papacy is indeed important…

I’m sorry but I think you are the one involved in verbal and mental gymnastics to justify your view. Matthew 23 has little to do with the issue at hand. While it indeed is a warning against self interested indulgence it doesn’t negate all reception of gifts or symbolism of office…
I am sorry but I can’t agree on a single point. Jesus was very - very concerned about religious ostentatiousness. I find it had to believe that Jesus was not absolutely referring to these types of practices.
 
I am sorry but I can’t agree on a single point.
Really? You can’t agree that the Papacy is important?
Jesus was very - very concerned about religious ostentatiousness. I find it had to believe that Jesus was not absolutely referring to these types of practices.
I think you’re taking Jesus out of context. Jesus was concerned about self indulgent behavior where the be all and end all was the pride and glory of the individual. That is not the case here. The early Church did not share your view:
“Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching…” 1 Tim 5:17
 
I am sorry but I can’t agree on a single point. Jesus was very - very concerned about religious ostentatiousness. I find it had to believe that Jesus was not absolutely referring to these types of practices.
Thomas, you state Catholic as your faith. What or who is providing you with these arguments against the practice and discipline of the Church? These are classic Protestant challenges you are presenting- oldest in the books. Are you losing faith in the Church? Are you being influenced by fundamentalists perhaps?
 
Not that Thomas Redd’s apparent issues with Papal attire are even relevant to this thread. But, Michelle Arnold fielded a question by someone (ironically named Thomas as well) on this same issue back in 2007:

Link here: ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=516313&Forums=4&Experts=0&Days=2008&Author=&Keyword=ambassador&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=1&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

*Thomas–

Perhaps you should be more hesitant to declare that others are sinning (cf. Matt. 7:1-5), particularly when it is apparent that you do not understand the reason why such marks of honor are given to Christ’s Vicar.

The customs you decry have arisen as means by which Christ is honored through his chosen representative. Look at it this way: When a country sends an ambassador to represent it, standard diplomatic protocol calls for the host country to give certain marks of respect to the ambassador (e.g., courtesy titles, playing the national anthem of the visiting country, displaying the visiting country’s flag, providing honored seating arrangements and guest quarters, etc.). These marks of respect are not for the individual but are for the visiting nation whom the individual represents.

In much the same way, Christ’s Vicar (“vicar” means “deputy”) is an ambassador of the heavenly kingdom and so the pope is given marks of respect to honor Christ himself, whom he specially represents.

Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers *

She also fielded a question in 2005:

Link here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=83870

*I assume that you are a Christian who is concerned with imitating Jesus and being Christlike. Jesus never wore jeans, a t-shirt, and sneakers. He never wore a watch or a baseball cap. For formal occasions, he would never have worn a tophat and tuxedo. If you wear these things on informal and formal occasions, does that mean that you are not acting in a Christlike manner and that it would be appropriate to question your Christian commitment? I hope that you agree that such a question answers itself. Our Christian commitment is not demonstrated by wearing exactly the clothes that Jesus would have worn, but by imitating his example of holiness.

In the pope’s case, he wears a simple robe called a cassock and a simple cap called a zucchetto in ordinary life. For special occasions, such as when he celebrates Mass, he wears a formal robe called a chasuble and a formal headdress called a miter. These clothes signify his status as Christ’s Vicar and honor the occasions on which he wears them, much as our clothing signifies our state in life and honors the occasions on which we wear them. If it is okay for ordinary Christians to wear clothing for such reasons, it is okay for the pope to do so. *

This erroneous charge that the Pope’s attire is ridiculously expensive and ostentatious and that the Vatican is worth so much money is just absurd. Even if his “ermine fur and other golden and jewel encrusted outfits” along with all the priceless artifacts were all sold off it would be A. not enough to make any difference in the long term goals of equality in the world and B. not the right of the Pope to do so anyhow. Also, C. it would lose an opportunity to glorify the splendor of the LORD, albeit using our poor human ways of expression.

I think this may have been pointed out beforehand, but just in case, Christ allowed his feet to be washed with expensive perfumes, do you also have a problem with Jesus? The Vatican and the Pope operate in the red most of the time, and the Catholic Church and affiliated Charities supply more help and aid to everywhere in the world than any other organization: fact.

I hope and pray that you will be less critical of the Church, YOUR Church, and truly embrace the great gift of its tradition, its witness to the faith, and the fidelity with which it carries on as the Church Jesus Christ Himself founded.

Lastly, you said:

*Let me simply quote something:

"Then addressing the people and his disciples Jesus said, 'The scribes and the Pharisees occupy the chair of Moses. You must therefore do what they tell you and listen to what they say, but do not be quided by what they do: since they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but will they lift a finger to move them. Not they! Everything they do is done to attract attention like wearing broader phylacteries and longer tassels, like wanting to take the place of honor at banquets and the front seat in the synagogues, being greeted obsequiously in the market squares and having people call them, Rabbi.

You however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only on teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you must be your servant. Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23: 1-12.

In spite of all the verbal and mental gymnastics to justify the opposite, don’t you in your deepest heart of heart believe what Jesus said is true?"*

…continued
 
How exactly do you equate this to the Papacy. #1 The subject of “call no man your father” has been absolutely beaten to death, and I hope you are either already familiar with it, or will please search this site for further reading, #2 The Pharisees and scribes are those who denied that Jesus was Christ, if they were truly men of religious faith they would have recognized that He was the promised Messiah, but they did not. Instead they were too busy making evidences of piety more noticeable, acting in order to earn praise, and demonstrating piety for no other purpose than to enhance their reputation as religious persons.

Are you charging that the Holy Father wears his garments to bring attention to himself, that he does what he does simply to earn praise, or that he wishes to enhance his own reputation as a religious person?

I sincerely hope you are not comparing the Pharisees and scribes of Jesus’ time to the office of the Papacy established by Christ Himself to be His Vicar on Earth. The Pope’s entire purpose is not to draw people to himself but to Jesus Christ, through His Mystical Body the Church, and to shepherd His flock as we journey towards eternal life.

To suggest otherwise is absolutely absurd, and as a Catholic I hope you will understand that.
 
How exactly do you equate this to the Papacy. #1 The subject of “call no man your father” has been absolutely beaten to death, and I hope you are either already familiar with it, or will please search this site for further reading, #2 The Pharisees and scribes are those who denied that Jesus was Christ, if they were truly men of religious faith they would have recognized that He was the promised Messiah, but they did not. Instead they were too busy making evidences of piety more noticeable, acting in order to earn praise, and demonstrating piety for no other purpose than to enhance their reputation as religious persons.

Are you charging that the Holy Father wears his garments to bring attention to himself, that he does what he does simply to earn praise, or that he wishes to enhance his own reputation as a religious person?

I sincerely hope you are not comparing the Pharisees and scribes of Jesus’ time to the office of the Papacy established by Christ Himself to be His Vicar on Earth. The Pope’s entire purpose is not to draw people to himself but to Jesus Christ, through His Mystical Body the Church, and to shepherd His flock as we journey towards eternal life.

To suggest otherwise is absolutely absurd, and as a Catholic I hope you will understand that.
To me it is clear that Jesus is absolutely talking about all religious leaders and not just the Pharisees. Remember he is using the Pharisees as an example to teach his follwers what not to do. The reason this keeps coming up because all the mental and verbal gymnastics like above simply don’t ring true to Jesus’s word. Somebody tried to claim that I don’t think the Papacy is important. On the contrary, I think it is so important that it should take care to always follow Jesus’s teaching.

Look at it another way. These garnish costumes and titles like “His Holiness” and “Holy Father” are a real scandal to untold number of people, me included. But what harm could come from the Pope wearing simple clerical garb in line with todays usage and using the correct Christian title of “Brother?” What harm could come from that? Absolutely none! Far from it, the Pope would be honored even more as truly acting as the successor of Peter.
 
To me it is clear that Jesus is absolutely talking about all religious leaders and not just the Pharisees. Remember he is using the Pharisees as an example to teach his follwers what not to do. The reason this keeps coming up because all the mental and verbal gymnastics like above simply don’t ring true to Jesus’s word. Somebody tried to claim that I don’t think the Papacy is important. On the contrary, I think it is so important that it should take care to always follow Jesus’s teaching.

Look at it another way. These garnish costumes and titles like “His Holiness” and “Holy Father” are a real scandal to untold number of people, me included. But what harm could come from the Pope wearing simple clerical garb in line with todays usage and using the correct Christian title of “Brother?” What harm could come from that? Absolutely none! Far from it, the Pope would be honored even more as truly acting as the successor of Peter.
Oh come on! So you’re Catholic but are posing low church Protestant thinking and practice?

All of the original Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox follow the same practices you feel uneasy with.

There are religious bodies within the Church who feel called to radical poverty, which is a beautiful thing, and certainly part of Jesus’s message, but to seek such an approach in the whole Church is heresy. The Waldorians in the high middle ages were guilty of this.
 
Oh come on! So you’re Catholic but are posing low church Protestant thinking and practice?

All of the original Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox follow the same practices you feel uneasy with.

There are religious bodies within the Church who feel called to radical poverty, which is a beautiful thing, and certainly part of Jesus’s message, but to seek such an approach in the whole Church is heresy. The Waldorians in the high middle ages were guilty of this.
The enemy of God wants nothing beautiful. God is all about beauty. Heaven is beautiful nad glorious so should be HIs Church here on earth. THe enemy wants the power of the Church to weakened and what better way of doing than see God’s House and the leaders wearing sack clothing? although I think our leaders should be wearing sac clothing as a sign of repentance for the sins.
 
To me it is clear that Jesus is absolutely talking about all religious leaders and not just the Pharisees. Remember he is using the Pharisees as an example to teach his follwers what not to do. The reason this keeps coming up because all the mental and verbal gymnastics like above simply don’t ring true to Jesus’s word. Somebody tried to claim that I don’t think the Papacy is important. On the contrary, I think it is so important that it should take care to always follow Jesus’s teaching.
Have you cut off your hand or poked out your eye when it causes you to sin? No? Well, what are you waiting for? Jesus told his followers to do that and if you don’t you’re causing scandal to others!

See, others can play this game too. Taking Jesus out of context can be fun when we want to point a finger at others but its not helpful…
Look at it another way. These garnish costumes and titles like “His Holiness” and “Holy Father” are a real scandal to untold number of people, me included. But what harm could come from the Pope wearing simple clerical garb in line with todays usage and using the correct Christian title of “Brother?” What harm could come from that? Absolutely none! Far from it, the Pope would be honored even more as truly acting as the successor of Peter.
For starters, what constitutes a “garnish costume”? And the fact you would say “costumes” is more than a little insulting. Do US Supreme Court Justices or State Troopers wear “costumes” in your opinion?
Secondly, as Catholics we are a symbolic people, we are not iconoclasts. By your logic perhaps even “simple clerical garb” is too garnish. Afterall, why wear a clerical “costume” at all? Why not just jeans and a t shirt?
 
Have you cut off your hand or poked out your eye when it causes you to sin? No? Well, what are you waiting for? Jesus told his followers to do that and if you don’t you’re causing scandal to others!

See, others can play this game too. Taking Jesus out of context can be fun when we want to point a finger at others but its not helpful…

For starters, what constitutes a “garnish costume”? And the fact you would say “costumes” is more than a little insulting. Do US Supreme Court Justices or State Troopers wear “costumes” in your opinion?
Secondly, as Catholics we are a symbolic people, we are not iconoclasts. By your logic perhaps even “simple clerical garb” is too garnish. Afterall, why wear a clerical “costume” at all? Why not just jeans and a t shirt?
Perhaps the clergy could replace their ‘Papist costumes’ and embrace the Geneva gown:
 
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