Cardinal Ratzinger: there's no "preventive war" in the catechism

[Steve_O_Brien]

Let’s settle this factual point: Catholics who insist on supporting the morally unjustifiable U.S. invasion of Iraq must acknowledge that they are doing so in opposition to the position taken by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. This is simply a fact. “Against a fact, there is no argument.”

I’m appending a Zenit news report dated September 22, 2002. Please note that it contains direct quotations from Cardinal Ratzinger.

In addition, please pay special attention to this paragraph:

"The ‘concept of a “preventive war” does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,’ Cardinal Ratzinger noted."

Keep and spread the Faith.

Code: ZE02092202

Date: 2002-09-22

Cardinal Ratzinger Says Unilateral Attack on Iraq Not Justified

Gives Personal Opinion; Favors Decision from U.N.

TRIESTE, Italy, SEPT. 22, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger does not believe that a unilateral military attack by the United States against Iraq would be morally justifiable, under the current circumstances.

According to the prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith – who acknowledged that political questions are not within his competence – “the United Nations is the [institution] that should make the final decision.”

“It is necessary that the community of nations makes the decision, not a particular power,” the cardinal said, after receiving the 2002 Trieste Liberal Award. His statements were published Saturday in the Italian newspaper Avvenire.

“The fact that the United Nations is seeking the way to avoid war, seems to me to demonstrate with enough evidence that the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save,” the cardinal said.

He said that “the U.N. can be criticized” from several points of view, but “it is the instrument created after the war for the coordination – including moral – of politics.”

The “concept of a ‘preventive war’ does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,” Cardinal Ratzinger noted.

“One cannot simply say that the catechism does not legitimize the war,” he continued. “But it is true that the catechism has developed a doctrine that, on one hand, does not exclude the fact that there are values and peoples that must be defended in some circumstances; on the other hand, it offers a very precise doctrine on the limits of these possibilities.”

The Vatican official appealed to the three religions derived from Abraham to offer the Ten Commandments as the means to dissuade terrorists.

“The Decalogue is not the private property of Christians or Jews,” Cardinal Ratzinger said. “It is a lofty expression of moral reason that, as such, is also found in the wisdom of other cultures. To refer again to the Decalogue might be essential precisely to restore reason.”

 

[mjdonnelly]

Steve O'Brien:

According to the prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith – who acknowledged that political questions are not within his competence

He’s just stating his opinion here, he didn’t have all the information.
Steve O'Brien:

“the United Nations is the [institution] that should make the final decision.”

And they chose to ignore the violations of Iraq through their own corruption.

“The fact that the United Nations is seeking the way to avoid war, seems to me to demonstrate with enough evidence that the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save,” the cardinal said.

Because France, Russia, and others were benefitting from Iraq breaking UN sanctions.
Steve O'Brien:

The “concept of a ‘preventive war’ does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,” Cardinal Ratzinger noted.

There are alot of things not in the Catechism. I can argue that the war did not violate the catechism with valid points. As follows by his own point:

“One cannot simply say that the catechism does not legitimize the war,” he continued.

Steve O'Brien:

The Vatican official appealed to the three religions derived from Abraham to offer the Ten Commandments as the means to dissuade terrorists.

Terrorists don’t care about the 10 commandments.

 

[jlw]

Ok, STILL, it is his OPINION that the UN should decide whether it is right or wrong. But AGAIN, popularity does not make something right or wrong!!!

The truth is, even if the UN decided to approve of ousting a brutal terrorizing tyrant like Saddam, the Church would STILL be of the opinion that war is “not the best solution” to the problems of humanity. And you know what?? SHE’S RIGHT!!! War is NOT the best solution in an ideal world, when dealing with reasonable leaders of state, whose political desires aren’t being spoken of by suicide bombers.

But sometimes war IS the solution when evil is running rampant, creating mayhem, and contributing to the Culture of Death, rather than the Culture of Life.

I can almost hear you now…“Huh??? jlw, how can war contribute to the Culture of Life???” Quite simply, by defending the innocent from brutality, standing up for freedom, and putting terrorists (the greatest threat to humanity right now) in jail, or in the ground. By defeating the ideology of hate and use (See: Nazism, the cousin of radical Islam) and allowing the ideology of faith, hope, and charity (that’s not just christian faith, that is inherent in every human heart*), *the Culture of Life can breathe free where it hasn’t in the world in *centuries! The dignity of human persons *in the middle east has been trampled on for centuries, and the blame for such oppresion has largely been put on the West (not without fault, but) as opposed to the very governments who steal, terrorize, and ignore the health and educational needs of their citizens. This blame game is responsible for terrorism!!!

War is ugly. War is such and animal that the *best *plans can be discarded within minutes of an operation. War is wrought with death, psychosis, and can inflict terrible damage. AND…

It can bring a peace that NO treaty in history has been able to do. Can you name one?? I can’t.

The Just War doctrine is a good doctrine. In it, it still gives a *state *the authority to take military action if it finds it necessary.

One cannot simply say that the catechism does not legitimize the war," he continued.

While it is true that the Just War Doctrine narrows the scope of what is justified, I don’t think that the men of the magesterium (who formulated the JWD) had an inkling that the world would fall such that men would solve their political problems by stapping on bombs full of nails and walk into a marketplace to blow up women and children…in the name of God, no less. Keep in mind that the Church didn’t formally endorse nor refute the grounds for war even against Nazi Germany!!!

“it is the instrument created after the war for the coordination – including moral – of politics.”

Then-Cardinal Ratzinger really believes this as an ideal. A worthy ideal, to be sure, But, come now, he certainly doesn’t believe that the UN policy on abortion, euthanasia, contraception are correct, just because the UN declares it so, does he?? NO. Something is right or wrong, regadless of how popular something is. Even if *only one *man thinks it so and has the courage to declare it. He, more than most, understands what is like to be an island, to be percieved as acting “unilaterally”, surrounded by the murky waters of moral relativism, “good intentions”, false doctrine and heresy.

ALSO, then cardidal ratzinger didn’t know about the corruption of the oil-for-food, the sweatheart deals between france, germany, and Russia with Saddam’s UN sanctioned regime for oil contracts, arms sales (!), and blocking any pressure to make Saddam responsilbe for his disregard of 17 UN resolutions over 12 years. The cardinal’s desire for the UN to be an honest broker (to borrow the phrase) is well and good, but the UN’s credibilty was tainted!! The UN was less interested in justice, (and the goals stated in it’s charter), and more interested in Saddams money in its coffers.

 

[qmvsimp]

Steve O'Brien:

Let’s settle this factual point: Catholics who insist on supporting the morally unjustifiable U.S. invasion of Iraq must acknowledge that they are doing so in opposition to the position taken by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. This is simply a fact. “Against a fact, there is no argument.”

This guy lives at a ranch down the street from you. About 100 people live on the ranch with him. He terrorizes those that live with him, including rape, torture & murder. The people inside appeal to the police to break down the ranchhouse door and free them and arrest this man.

By your reasoning, it would be immoral for the police to do so.

No preventative war, eh? Then it was OK to wait for Hilter to gain enough power & arms and allow most of Europe to fall to the Nazi’s?

Was Iraq solely a preventative war? I don’t think so. Liberating those being abused by Saddam, the continuation of Gulf War I based on ceasefire violations, enforcing UN resolutions, attacking back at a military that was firing on our airplanes, paying suicide bomber’s families, and providing safe haven for terrorists such as Abu Nidal, Mohammad Abbas & Al-Zarqawi to name a few. Take your pick.

The idea that Iraq was attacked solely to prevent us from being attacked is falacious. Read the resolution passed by Congress authorizing the use of force in Iraq.

 

[st.jerome]

Steve O'Brien:

The “concept of a ‘preventive war’ does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,” Cardinal Ratzinger noted.

Bravo! I thought there was something wrong when I saw the catechism being used to justify the war in Iraq.

This validates the opinion which I had all along–namely that the Catholic Church, like the U.N., is an universal body with a greater perspective than that of any particular state. I think that it is good that the Church will oppose the world’s most powerful country for the sake of righteousness! The Church teaches us to stand down and learn humility!

 

[jlw]

st.jerome:

Bravo! I thought there was something wrong when I saw the catechism being used to justify the war in Iraq.

This validates the opinion which I had all along–namely that the Catholic Church, like the U.N., is an universal body with a greater perspective than that of any particular state. I think that it is good that the Church will oppose the world’s most powerful country for the sake of righteousness! The Church teaches us to stand down and learn humility!

Does the UN have “greater perspective” in regards to abortion?? Euthanasia? Contraception??

 

[qmvsimp]

jlw:

Does the UN have “greater perspective” in regards to abortion?? Euthanasia? Contraception??

Amen brother. Everybody picks and chooses what they get from the UN.

How about enforcing the resolutions from the organization that has a better perspective on things?

 

[JimG]

And yet the Church signed off on the Norman invasion of England in 1066. England wasn’t threatening anybody . . .

 

[dumspirospero]

So Mr. Obrien, I guess if you had knowledge beforehand that a sexual predator was going to break into your daughters room and viciously rape and murder her, you would wait until after the crime was perpetrated before you would act??? Doesn’t make to much sense does it?

 

[bengeorge]

st.jerome:

This validates the opinion which I had all along–namely that the Catholic Church, like the U.N., is an universal body with a greater perspective than that of any particular state.

Ugh, please don’t compare the Catholic Church to the UN.

 

[jlw]

bengeorge:

Ugh, please don’t compare the Catholic Church to the UN.

Agreed!

The Body of Christ…and …the Body of secular humanism.

Riiiiiight.

 

[estesbob]

Steve O'Brien:

Let’s settle this factual point: Catholics who insist on supporting the morally unjustifiable U.S. invasion of Iraq must acknowledge that they are doing so in opposition to the position taken by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. This is simply a fact. “Against a fact, there is no argument.”

"

So? Is there someplace in the Cathecism that states we have to agree with everything a Cardinal says? I have great repect for Bendict XVI and will listen carefully to any teachings he has on faith and morals. OTH I could not care less what his opinion is of US Foreigh Policy.

 

[MikeWM]

estesbob:

I have great repect for Bendict XVI and will listen carefully to any teachings he has on faith and morals. OTH I could not care less what his opinion is of US Foreigh Policy.

Ah. So your opinion is that there isn’t any link between US Foreign Policy and morality?

Mike

 

[Richardols]

dumspirospero:

So Mr. Obrien, I guess if you had knowledge beforehand that a sexual predator was going to break into your daughters room and viciously rape and murder her, you would wait until after the crime was perpetrated before you would act??? Doesn’t make to much sense does it?

The act of an individual to a situation personally experienced on a personal level doesn’t translate to a solution for a problem on a wider level.

 

[marvin]

I had heard someone speculate, (and I’m sorry I can’t remember who) that the Vatican could not been seen as openly supporting any military action against muslims in order to avoid feeding muslim paranoia about a new “crusade”. I’m not saying its a conspiracy or anything, just that the Vatican had to tread lightly around this issue in order to avoid violence against Christians.

Anyone else know what I mean or hear this theory advanced elsewhere?

And just to be clear, I don’t mean to imply that the Vatican secretly approves of the war. I believe that JPII was opposed to ANY military action whatsoever.

 

[gilliam]

When Is War Justified?

The moral theory of the “just-war” or “limited-war” doctrine begins with the presumption which binds all Christians: We should do no harm to our neighbors. Just-war teaching has evolved as an effort to prevent war. Only if war cannot be rationally avoided does the teaching then seek to restrict and reduce its horrors. It does this by establishing a set of rigorous conditions which must be met if the decision to go to war is to be morally permissible. Such a decision, especially today, requires extraordinarily strong reasons for overriding the presumption in favor of peace and against war. The conditions for a just war are as follows:

• Just cause. War is permissible only to confront “a real and certain danger,” i.e., to protect innocent life, to preserve conditions necessary for decent human existence and to secure basic human rights.

rest is here:

catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp

americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/justwar.asp

Could that a preventative war? Looks to me like the answer is yes.

 

[Pondero]

The Pope has said the following:

"Non-negotiable issues:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion or euthanasia."

The Spiritual Vision of Benedict XVI ., Let God’s Light Shine Forth, p.154 edited by Robert Moynihan.

 

[jlw]

Pondero:

The Pope has said the following:

"Non-negotiable issues:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion or euthanasia."

The Spiritual Vision of Benedict XVI ., Let God’s Light Shine Forth, p.154 edited by Robert Moynihan.

TA-DA! Can we move on now?

 

[gilliam]

Of course since 2003, the Vatican and many Bishops have come out in favor of us working hard for a democratic Iraq. See:

Military intervention has brought with it new and grave moral responsibilities. As the principal occupying power in Iraq, the United States now has responsibility for sustained, long-term efforts to help the Iraqi people build a stable, pluralistic, democratic, and prosperous Iraq. Unfortunately, there are no simple or quick ways of achieving these goals. The people of Iraq must determine their own political future even if that process is complicated and fraught with potential difficulties. …
As the Holy Father said in his recent meeting with President George W. Bush, “It is the evident desire of everyone that this situation now be normalized as quickly as possible with the active participation of the international community and, in particular, the United Nations Organization, in order to ensure a speedy return of Iraq’s sovereignty, in conditions of security for all its people.” We are encouraged by the new efforts of the United States to work with the United Nations to ensure that Iraqis have the means and a clear plan for reassuming their sovereign responsibilities. Continued support for an active UN role seems critical to ensuring the success of this process. …[ed–I am still waiting for the UN to do something, anything to help the situation in Iraq.]

By its military intervention in Iraq, the U.S. government has taken on a moral obligation to engage in a difficult, long-term process of nation building.

Statement on Moral Responsibilities for United States in Iraq
Bishop Wilton D. Gregory, June 22, 2004


Letter to Secretary Condoleezza Rice****and National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley
Bishop John H. Ricard, August 8, 2005

Letter to Secretary of State, Patriarch, Emanuel Delly, Colin L. Powell, and Interim Prime Minister, Iyad Allawi, on Iraqi Christians
Bishop John H. Ricard, October 22, 2004

 

[JOHNYJ]

the problem is history.Chamberlain and France.Did nothing,when Hitler.
Invaded the Rhineland
Invaded Austria
Invaded Czechoslovakia
It wasn’t until he attacked Poland .That they declared war. Yet if they had knocked hitler out when he started.The world might have been saved, 32,000,000, dead.
The U N .We should let the U N handle things,let he U N protect people. Wasn’t it the U N that was sapose to be protecting those 8,000 Bosnian men & boys in Screbenica. Wasn’t it U N troops that turned them over to the Serbs.Who marched them off,never to be seen again.Or how about Darfur in the Sudan the U N is handling that,What 2 million displaced and 300,000 dead.With all due Respect, Christianity is not a suicide pact !