Cardinal Ratzinger: there's no "preventive war" in the catechism

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This is all theoretical, but it proves a point…

“no preventative war”…tell me something…say a country has nuclear bombs pointed at us that could obliterate this country, and we know that we could stop them without the weapons being fired- if we go to war with them(that is unlikely, but just say that we could), but if we don’t, we KNOW they will blast us off the face of the earth. Now, they haven’t done it yet, but suppose they do- wouldn’t it make sense to take preventative measures? (YES!)
 
People love to point out World War II as an example of people failing to take action… But, well thats’ one war, what about World War I where countries started building up arms because other countries were building up arms and making alliances and agreements, so that one little fire led to war on the entire European continent. In many ways after what happened in World I, World War II became ineveitable. I’m quite sure some of the European leaders felt at the beginning of World War I, wars inevitable anyways.

Besides you cannot compare Hitler and Germany to Iraq situation! Even if Saddam had the weapons (and our proof was murky) We still had the man pretty incapacitated. WE don’t know that Saddam would have been stupid enough to direct those weapons against us… He got licked last time he faced us (and that war was understandable because he attacked Kuwait, and the oil issues.)

Germany on the other hand really had the best miltary in the world at that time. (They lost because they had two many enemies.) And she was taking over Europe systematically. YOu cannot compare the Iraq were facing to Germany.

The problem with preventive war is our country couldn’t proof that Sadaam was going to hit us, and if you want to go with threat we are better of attacking Iran, who does have nuclear weapons and have a much more documented connection to Al Queda. Plus, Iranian leaders and Saddam were not friends saddam was abusing the Shitte majority in Iraq, now you have Iran with probably far more influence in Iraq.

I don’t know if i was the right answer, but I’m not sure we can label it as “just war” because our reasons were questionable. Also in just war, you have to proof that you can resolve it quickly, and not exasperate the problem, and there’s a real danger that we did that with Iraq. Did what we do create more terrorists? Make others sympathetic to the cause of Ben Ladins. Even if the Iraqi people are happy, what about the Muslims in other countries. Are they getting the whole story? They are a saying that a revolutionary’s greatest fear is a liberal ruler. It’s hard to get people to rise up when their life conditions are somewhat decent. (Even if the people don’t necessarily like the conquering government etc. For example, Britian was going to give Ireland home rule, and the majority of the Irish, well while they hated Britian, weren’t going to necessarily revelot. But some rebels did some bad things, and the British responded harsily, angering the Irish majority.

Each harsh reaction made them more angry with the British, and more likely to say we want nothing to do with you. There’s a very real danger, that this is what is happening in the Muslim world, and its exactly what the terrorists want to happen. For the average Muslim to become so angry with the U.S, that more join their cause.
 
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BibleReader:
“Did you tell me that you can make that thing generate two hundred megatons for ‘Project New York’?”

President Bush, when he reads the headline on Page 1 of the New York Times
I don´t think the New York Times would print this on page 1 🙂
 
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JOHNYJ:
the problem is history.Chamberlain and France.Did nothing,when Hitler.
Invaded the Rhineland
Invaded Austria
Invaded Czechoslovakia
It wasn’t until he attacked Poland .That they declared war. Yet if they had knocked hitler out when he started.The world might have been saved, 32,000,000, dead.
The UK didn’t have the military strength to knock Hitler out at that time. Wouldn’t it be better to say that if Hitler hadn’t done all these things the world would have been saved 32,000,000 dead?
 
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PiusXIII:
Sometimes it seems that there are Catholics who are more willing to follow what Bush says than what the Pope says.
Nonsense.

The Pope has stated there are 5 non-negotiable issues. Bush agrees with the Pope on these isues. The 5 are :
  1. Abortion
  2. Euthansia
  3. Fetal Stem Cell research
  4. Cloning
  5. Homosexual Marriage
The Democrat party platform suppots all 5. So tell me-how does a Democrat Catholic reconcle this? Tell me again whom is more wiling to listen to whom?
 
Catholics are free to disagree about the war, but it’s pretty clear what the opinions of the Pope and the Vatican were on the subject.

Considering Pope JPII was basically a living saint, I would think that prudence would dictate that we go along with him on the matter.
 
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mike182d:
If my last post seemed trite and angry, I do apologize as that was not my intended effect. I’ve just been on a roll with a couple posts back to back on just war and the adrenaline is pumpin’ 😃

I better stop now…
I took it as you meant it. Don’t sweat it. Besides, I agree with you on all that you’ve said.
 
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estesbob:
Nonsense.

The Pope has stated there are 5 non-negotiable issues. Bush agrees with the Pope on these isues. The 5 are :
  1. Abortion
  2. Euthansia
  3. Fetal Stem Cell research
  4. Cloning
  5. Homosexual Marriage
The Democrat party platform suppots all 5. So tell me-how does a Democrat Catholic reconcle this? Tell me again whom is more wiling to listen to whom?
I agree.

How can a Democrat Catholic agree with their party of choice when that party goes against all 5 of the non-negotiable issues?
 
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bekalc:
Even if Saddam had the weapons (and our proof was murky) We still had the man pretty incapacitated.
I guess it depends on how you define “incapacitated.” Saddam was shooting at our planes. Saddam allowed Ansar Al-Islam to operate in his country. They’re an Islamic terrorist organization that had a broken plane that they practiced hijacking on. Saddam paid the families of suicide bombers in Israel. Saddam gave safe haven and allowed continued operations of Abu Nidal, Mohammad Abbas and Al-Zarqawi, to name a few.

I for one, do not consider that “incapacitated.”
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bekalc:
YOu cannot compare the Iraq were facing to Germany.
You’ve pointed out some good differences, but I can still compare Iraq to Germany. Were they exact same? No. But the philosophical similarity of stopping a growing threat before you (or someone else) get hurt and/or before they become too powerful is a fair comparison.
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bekalc:
The problem with preventive war is our country couldn’t proof that Sadaam was going to hit us,
If you wait until he is powerful enough to hurt you and you wait until you have definitive proof that he is about to attack you, you’ve waited too long.
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bekalc:
and if you want to go with threat we are better of attacking Iran, who does have nuclear weapons and have a much more documented connection to Al Queda.
But Iran was not shooting at our planes, nor violating numerous UN resolutions, nor violating a ceasefire. Besides, you can’t do every bad country at the same time. You do one at a time and hope the others see the light, like Libya did.
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bekalc:
Also in just war, you have to proof that you can resolve it quickly, and not exasperate the problem, and there’s a real danger that we did that with Iraq.
Not true. A just war is not mandated to be “quick.” Plus quick is a loosely defined word when it comes to war.
 
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Pondero:
The UK didn’t have the military strength to knock Hitler out at that time. Wouldn’t it be better to say that if Hitler hadn’t done all these things the world would have been saved 32,000,000 dead?
That is definitely not clear after his Rhineland foray. But even if it was, we’re not talking about the UK only. We’re talking about the UK, France, Belgium, United States, Poland, etc.
 
The UN (Useless Nations) is nothing more than a group of politicians. We can’t get politicians in our own country to agree on important issues so how are we to expect politicians of different countries to agree on important issues? Especially when you consider the fact that terrorist nations have a spot on the UN making policy! You have Libya on the human rights commission!! Now it is true that Libya has made improvements since we invaded Iraq but I still wouldn’t trust them when it comes to human rights.

I would rather trust our own President to make decisions on our national security then I would a bunch of politicians from foreign countries who are only looking out for their own nations…IE the oil for food scandal.
 
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PaulKorb:
Considering Pope JPII was basically a living saint, I would think that prudence would dictate that we go along with him on the matter.
If we have little to no information on this matter, then yes. When we first approach this matter with no information, we should use his opinion as the starting point.

But after studying it yourself, in the absence of Catholic Dogma, we are morally bound to pray about it and make up our own minds.
 
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PaulKorb:
Catholics are free to disagree about the war, but it’s pretty clear what the opinions of the Pope and the Vatican were on the subject.

Considering Pope JPII was basically a living saint, I would think that prudence would dictate that we go along with him on the matter.
John Paul II NEVER condemned the Iraqi war as being an unjust war. That is another myth that the MM keeps perpetuating.
 
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qmvsimp:
If you wait until he is powerful enough to hurt you and you wait until you have definitive proof that he is about to attack you, you’ve waited too long.
Unfortunately, Iraq could have justified an attack on us given that last part of your statement. We even gave them definitive proof!
 
What really bothers me is the question of Nukes.

At least, during the Cold War, each side had the capability to destroy the world 3 times over, and neither side had the temerity to tempt the opposition!

Right now we have these tiny countries developing Nukes–about as bad as a baby rattlesnake. Are we really so cocksure of ourselves as to “preempt” our way around the globe, thinking that no one is going to use these things?

Sorry if I sound unpatriotic, but I don’t want to be around when that happens!
 
Those little countries would use them no matter what our actions were. They don’t need a reason, us being not muslim is enough.
 
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estesbob:
John Paul II NEVER condemned the Iraqi war as being an unjust war. That is another myth that the MM keeps perpetuating.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that he wasn’t for it. He met with Bush 3x before the attack. He would not have met with him if it was a no-brainer. His reaction to the Iraqi War was far different from OEF. And the Vatican statements were very negative to the idea of Iraq.

As I said before, Catholics may differ on this issue … but please don’t be blind to the actions and statements of JPII/Vatican.
 
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PaulKorb:
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that he wasn’t for it. He met with Bush 3x before the attack. He would not have met with him if it was a no-brainer. His reaction to the Iraqi War was far different from OEF. And the Vatican statements were very negative to the idea of Iraq.

As I said before, Catholics may differ on this issue … but please don’t be blind to the actions and statements of JPII/Vatican.
You appear to be the one who is blind John Paul the great never condemned the Iraqi war as unjust. Those are the facts. You dont like tthe facts becuase it doesnt support your premise.
 
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PaulKorb:
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that he wasn’t for it. He met with Bush 3x before the attack. He would not have met with him if it was a no-brainer. His reaction to the Iraqi War was far different from OEF. And the Vatican statements were very negative to the idea of Iraq.

As I said before, Catholics may differ on this issue … but please don’t be blind to the actions and statements of JPII/Vatican.
Since when did JPII ever leave something for everyone to ‘figure out’? If he thought it was unjust, he would have said so. He stood up against the Soviet Union for crying out loud.
 
Jesus said, “whoever is not against us is for us.”

Bush said, “whoever isn’t with is against us”

The counterfeit truth of satan is obvious.
 
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