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pnewton
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Any young man that does not want to be married because a woman might be too demanding, should* not* get married. The same should go for those that think women should be kept barefoot and pregnant.
Cardinal Raymond Burke: ‘Feminized’ church and altar girls caused priest shortage
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JW55
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I think he is emphasizing a couple of key points but the overall message is the general laxity and permissiveness seen throughout the church. The particular issues he mentions are just those that are quite evident outward problems.
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LisaA
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casslean, I see you are in RCIA and I wish you many blessings on your journey. I am not sure which statement you find lacking in credibility. The reality, well documented, and carefully researched is that the priest abuse crisis was caused by PREDATORY homosexuals. They were not “child molesters” in the defined meaning of that word. They were predatory homosexuals who abused post-pubescent males (over 80% of the cases dating well back into the 1950s). A child molester is attracted to and victimizes pre pubescent children…generally below age 10. They are not attracted to children who are not sexually mature but to young men…I think the average age was 15 or 16, not 8 or 9.
I did a huge amount of reading and research as this crisis was still very much an issue the year I came into the Church. Also I have had a lot of contact with homosexuals in both a personal and professional basis. Cardinal Burke is spot on with his comments. As to the comment that abuse declined although the number of men with SSA (same sex attraction) entering the priesthood supposedly increased actually makes sense. In the years the abuse took place, the priesthood was a very good place for a gay man to hide, not get the awkward questions about why he hasn’t married and settled down. Of course men with SSA can remain celibate and the men entering the priesthood now are not doing so with the idea they need to hide their sexual orientation as in the past.
As to the Altar “Girls” (we use the term Servers and do not distinguish) I don’t think the comment was referencing that what females do is less important but that as Cardinal Burke said, boys of that age cohort are not interested in girls, nor in activities in which girls participate. I think it’s unfortunate that the role of the Altar Boy moving closer to Christ and a potential vocation has been discounted. Now it’s just like a part in a play and the actual significance of the role has evaporated.
We do have a Catholic Church that does not have any Altar Girls, all young men and they are amazing, inspirational and really help to create a feeling of the significance of the Mass.
Oh and I’m also a Sacristan and do clean the linens
You actually get a greater understanding and respect for the Mass, for the Body and Blood of Christ as the procedures and the care taken reflect the importance of this task.
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sttcatherinefan
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Lifesite News strikes me as about as accurate as a tabloid. I read Burke’s interview and he is essentially inferring that marriage has fallen because women demanded “rights” in the 1970s. The rights that they demanded back then were what I pointed out. Burke thinks that rolling back the protections afforded women now would increase marriage. (Because men would feel less threatened because women would have less opportunities and therefore have to be housewives. And men wouldn’t have to compete with them in the workforce.)
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SMGS127
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bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay_revised/2004_02_27_John_Jay_Main_Report_Optimized.pdf
Over 65% of boys abused in the priest scandal were 14 or under and were barely in puberty, if at all. Puberty, of course, occurs later in life in men than women, and does not conclude until about 16-17. In fact, in order for your numbers to be remotely accurate, you would have to be asserting that 11-year old boys are post-pubescent, a claim that I believe everyone would agree with me is ridiculous.
I, for one, do not believe that straight men are attracted to 12-year-old girls. I would hope the straight men on this forum would agree with me.
The priestly abuse scandal was a hebephile/pedophile problem, not a homosexual problem. Again, the John Jay Report explicitly states this as well.
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Gorgias
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It would be disingenuous to suggest that this isn’t a response that’s purely emotional.
What is it about the suggestion “Catholic men find the Church and liturgy to be overly ‘feminine’ to their taste” that goads you into an emotional response? Just curious…
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SWolf
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Man is this ever true.
I knew a guy who was at the brink of getting married. They started having their serious talks, and she stated she expected him to work 60-80 hours a week with a well over 6-figure income. He would move across the country with her so she could be close to her parents. She would stay at home regardless of how many kids they had or how their finances were. Of course, housework would still be 50-50.
The lady didn’t know the meaning of the word compromise.
He ran for the hills.
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gracepoole
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I’d love to have some kind of data on the number of altar boys who ultimately transitioned into the priesthood before girls were allowed to be altar servers. I have two daughters and on a personal level, I’m not going to push them in that direction precisely because I want boys who have an interest to step up. But I’ve seen many, many boys who seem to serve only because their parents are making them. Little reverence involved, inappropriate dress under the robe (one even wearing a t-shirt advertising hot sauce with a devil on it, which was completely visible 
), minds wandering during Mass until they have to be reminded by the priest that their service is required, etc. It seems a bit overly simplistic to claim that this is all because girls also have been allowed to serve.
Why is Cardinal Burke speaking out about this now? What’s the goal of these sorts of statements?
), minds wandering during Mass until they have to be reminded by the priest that their service is required, etc. It seems a bit overly simplistic to claim that this is all because girls also have been allowed to serve.Why is Cardinal Burke speaking out about this now? What’s the goal of these sorts of statements?
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LisaA
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Well merely coincidence that over 80% were boys? I don’t think heterosexual men are attracted to males of ANY age. So you think that the only criteria was that the victim be a minor? That otherwise heterosexual males ignored their chromosomes and their hormones just so they could prey sexually upon a minor of either gender?
Here’s the irony, the same people who are so determined to avoid calling this problem what it is, predatory homosexuality, are the same ones who claim that one cannot change their sexual orientation
Sorry that dog don’t hunt.The Jay Report focuses on abuse and does not address the problems caused by homosexuality in the seminaries, in the priesthood, in monasteries, and with orders, etc. That these abusive priests were caught and prosecuted (as they should have been) for preying upon minors does not mean they were not also engaged in homosexual activity with other men. In fact there were subsequent reports that certain seminaries were a hotbed of homosexual activity and a holy and orthodox candidate need not apply or if he did was quickly voted off the island.
Please explain if you still believe that the abusing priests did not experience SSA but simply went after whatever kid was available, why 80% of the victims were males? Further as the Jay Report did investigate, did this change in later years? IOW the early cases of priest abuse had a far greater incidence of preying upon girls AND boys. But factor in the later years and the huge swing to almost exclusively male victims reduced it to a mere 80%.
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SMGS127
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Priests had much greater access to boys than girls, and anyone going into the Priesthood in order to exploit children knew this fact as well. For a child molester, the priesthood was a better “hunting ground” if one was into boys, so there is a selection bias as well. A child molester interested in young girls would be much more likely to enter into ballet teaching, or another employment opportunity that would involve them with young women.
Studies have shown no link between gendered attraction to adults and gendered attraction to children, and most pedophiles/hebephiles have no adult attraction to speak of. There are much more reasonable explanations for the John Jay Report than a conclusion explicitly declared wrong by the report itself.
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AnnArbor
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Fascinating. My response wasn’t actually based in emotion at all. Merely pointing out that it is ironic to complain that the bride of Christ is feminine.
Also, it is interesting that ‘feminization’ is being used as a pejorative. Feminine is not negative.
How would you respond if the majority of Catholics (i.e. women) complained that the Church was too ‘masculinized’?
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casslean
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I don’t know how many times I have to say this. Molestation has nothing to do with attraction. It is about power and exploitation, which means that the important factor is opportunity. Of course those in the priesthood were more likely to exploit boys - they had more access to boys. They were likely to be in positions of trust and authority.
And why did they molest these boys? Because they are child molesters. Not because they, or the priesthood, or the church, has suffered any kind of “feminization”. Not because they were “confused about their sexual identity.” Because they wanted to find victims to exploit, and they knew that their positions in the church would allow them to do that.
Frankly, I think the comments Cardinal Burke made are a slap in the face to those who suffered this abuse, to suggest that their abusers are somehow less culpable for their actions than they were, and are wholly inconsistent with the tremendous strides the Church has made in healing many of the wounds from this terrible time.
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pianistclare
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Yes.
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pnewton
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While this is the modern mantra, simplistic absolutes are seldom true. Sexual attraction in molestation cases is a factor, as evidence by the sexual act and that most abusers have types that they sexually prefer.
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ProVobis
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But there’s a difference between femininity and feminism. At least I think so.
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Seamus_L
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They had to make the argument that men who molest boys aren’t homosexual, because otherwise it would prove that a disproportionately high number of homosexuals are pedophiles.
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Peebo
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Anyone who thinks that allowing girls to be altar servers has led to a decline in boys wanting to be priests needs to lay off the KoolAid…what does nit picking on non issues have to do with evangelization…spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ and of salvation…absolutely nothing…these are the things the Vicar of Christ is calling Catholics to do…that includes a certain Cardinal and his supporters here on CAF
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boar2roar
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Isn’t it rather common informal knowledge that a lot of homosexuals are attracted to younger people and sometimes children? These people weren’t molesting girls in the majority of cases so the ones who target boys are homosexual by definition.
You’d be surprised, Im obviously not but a lot of men go to places like Asia specifically to get younger then legal females.
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mjs2001
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Altar girls caused the priest shortage? Well, if a young man cannot answer God’s call merely because he has something against altar girls, then I think that the Church is much better off–that sort of fellow ought not be a priest anyway. There are so few children in my parish, it is a joy and a blessing to see altar servers. It is a joy, too, to see that both girls and boys can be so close to our Lord at the time of the consecration. While I don’t believe that altar girls actually dissuade boys from becoming priests, I do believe that the experience can greatly strengthen the faith of the girls who participate. Some of them might even become nuns!
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Hodegetria
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I caught that, too. Just another shot from the media, we should be used to that…
I have made the mistake of ordering TIA materiel and so have read about a lot of so-called prophecy about the Church splitting from within. I later learned about TIA and that they’re kind of a splinter group…nonetheless it sure looks as if they are correct. The Church seems to be imploding from within. Ever since St Pope John Paul the Great died, there have been more and more rumors and scandals at the Vatican. Or maybe I’m just more aware of them…it is hard to tell who the “troublemakers” are.
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