Cardinal Sarah: ‘Priests are not obliged to wash women’s feet on Holy Thursday’

[otjm]

By the statements that are made from the ambo. “We have to have women and children.”

Ah. It would appear at the minimum that the priest had made a choice to include them. Whether there is more at play realy gets to speculation; I take “have to” to also include “need”. but whatever.

The point has been made elsewhere that the washing of the feet by Christ was primarily a lesson of the need for humility in service to others; and there have been those who disagree with that.

 

[zz912]

I have never heard where the Church teaches this, or where priests ordained before the moratorium have been screened and removed for this problem. I know a moratorium has been placed on such people entering the priesthood, but I do not know where this has ever been taught. Perhaps we should add foot fetishes to the moratorium.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter[8].

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture"[10].

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.

 

[zz912]

Do you have any issue as a culture with feet? what do you find sexy about slim,fat,perfect,imperfect,scarred,clean or a dirty set of toes?

I d really be more worried about my knees and standing up between one and the another…without having to call 911 to stand up!.

It’s funny how everyone who disagrees with me immediately thought of a foot fetish. I thought I was pretty clear that the risk to modesty is mostly from the priest’s head being right at knee height on the woman. Hopefully she doesn’t have on shorts or a skirt.

 

[otjm]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter[8].

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture"[10].

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.

That is the new rule - and the best of seminaries will have their work cut out for them trying to weed out those who may fall within the parameters of the rule.

On the other hand, after the John Jay report came out, there was public speculation as to how many (current) priests suffer from SSA. Guesses were all over the map, from 10% to 80%. Having spoken with a priest recently who has been ordained for some time, concerning a diocese he knew, his guesstimate (based on having been around those same priests for several decades), was that in that diocese, he guessed 40% to have SSA, with maybe 25% sexually active.

I chose not to ask if the 25% was of all priests, or just of the 40% (or 10% of all). It is going to take a long time to flush the system out, and one can only guess as to what impact those may have on the issues.

 

[utah_rose]

Yes, the Twelve Apostles were men, it should be men. I think that is what Cardinal Sarah meant.

I do too. And I don’t think most women would feel left out if they did. Love the Cardinal. Im reading his book. He’d be great as the next Pope.

 

[graciew]

It’s funny how everyone who disagrees with me immediately thought of a foot fetish. I thought I was pretty clear that the risk to modesty is mostly from the priest’s head being right at knee height on the woman. Hopefully she doesn’t have on shorts or a skirt.

It can get worse…think of this: cold weather…leggings under trousers plus socks plus boots!! No…we do not want to see the poor priests washing stockings instead of feet…
Hopefully,some dress code will be asked for all!
God bless you!

 

[jaimeleglise]

Thanks, Utah Rose. God bless you.

 

[pnewton]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html
…cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture"[10].

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.

Exactly. The appeal is to prudence, not doctrine, and no mention is made that a person who is a priest should be removed for the priesthood. Seminary admissions only are being addressed. Thus, what I said earlier about how gay priests are able to wash men’s feet, must by necessity still apply for a couple of generations.

 

[otjm]

Perhaps many male Catholics who have SSA go into the priesthood because they cannot get married… and this ends up leading them to feel they have a “call” to the priesthood.

So…is the Vatican saying that a man with SSA cannot have the calling to be a priest as a vocation?
That the calling he feels is … *not “valid”??
*
Or, he may have the calling…but the church will not allow it??

(I realize this is a tangent…but it’s the first time I’ve seen that sentence posted via the Vatican…)

.

Ultimately it is the Church which calls a man to ordination.

However, not too many men end up in a seminary without thinking that they either have a call to be a priest, or may have one. Some are more convinced than others that they have a call; but ultimately it is the Church which does the calling.

We often refer to the individual as “having a calling” and that is not “wrong”, but since it is ultimately the Church which “calls” the person to ordination, the language surrounding a vocation can cause a certain amount of confusion.

Consider that there are some married men who may feel they have a calling to a priestly vocation. Whether that is legitimate or real is basically irrelevant, as the Church does not call (Catholic, as opposed to Protestant minister converts) to ordination. The Church could do so - the rule of ordaining only celibate Catholic men is a discipline - but at this point, it doesn’t.

Hope that helps.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Ultimately it is the Church which calls a man to ordination.

However, not too many men end up in a seminary without thinking that they either have a call to be a priest, or may have one. Some are more convinced than others that they have a call; but ultimately it is the Church which does the calling.

We often refer to the individual as “having a calling” and that is not “wrong”, but since it is ultimately the Church which “calls” the person to ordination, the language surrounding a vocation can cause a certain amount of confusion.

Consider that there are some married men who may feel they have a calling to a priestly vocation. Whether that is legitimate or real is basically irrelevant, as the Church does not call (Catholic, as opposed to Protestant minister converts) to ordination. The Church could do so - the rule of ordaining only celibate Catholic men is a discipline - but at this point, it doesn’t.

Hope that helps.

Actually it is God who calls a man to the priesthood or to be a deacon.

I went through the twelve week discernment process to become a deacon and they helped us discern whether God was calling us or not. That discernment process didn’t end after twelve weeks, but continue right up to ordination. One guy who was in my group, dropped out two weeks before ordination.

Either way, the call is an invitation, not an order.

Jim

 

[otjm]

Actually it is God who calls a man to the priesthood or to be a deacon.

I went through the twelve week discernment process to become a deacon and they helped us discern whether God was calling us or not. That discernment process didn’t end after twelve weeks, but continue right up to ordination. One guy who was in my group, dropped out two weeks before ordination.

Either way, the call is an invitation, not an order.

Jim

And I have two relatives who were just short of being ordained transitional deacons when the archbishop invited them to remove themselves from ordination. Unspoken in my prior comments were the fact that there are men who feel God is calling them to the priesthood, but the archbishop is not.

And of course one can come back and say (because it has been said numerous times already) that if the archbishop (or the Church) is not calling you to priesthood, then God is not calling. Which I find to be on the rank of pablum statements. Others may disagree (they already have), but my point stands to the poster to whom I was directing my comment.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And I have two relatives who were just short of being ordained transitional deacons when the archbishop invited them to remove themselves from ordination. Unspoken in my prior comments were the fact that there are men who feel God is calling them to the priesthood, but the archbishop is not.

And of course one can come back and say (because it has been said numerous times already) that if the archbishop (or the Church) is not calling you to priesthood, then God is not calling. Which I find to be on the rank of pablum statements. Others may disagree (they already have), but my point stands to the poster to whom I was directing my comment.

If God were calling them, then they would’ve made it through to ordination despite the Archbishop asking them to remove themselves.

I’ve known men who were rejected in a dioceses in the east, only to go to Nebraska and be ordained.

They were rejected in the east because they opposed gay marriage and were devoted to following the teachings of the Church. This was prior to the eruption of the sex abuse scandals, where many heterosexual males were rejected from the priesthood for the very reason.

Jim

 

[otjm]

If God were calling them, then they would’ve made it through to ordination despite the Archbishop asking them to remove themselves.

I’ve known men who were rejected in a dioceses in the east, only to go to Nebraska and be ordained.

They were rejected in the east because they opposed gay marriage and were devoted to following the teachings of the Church. This was prior to the eruption of the sex abuse scandals, where many heterosexual males were rejected from the priesthood for the very reason.

Jim

You and I are, I suspect, talking past each other. As to your first comment, I will give an example. There is a priest in southern California, whose daughter lives in my parish. He comes to visit about once er year.

According to him, God was calling him well before his wife died. the bishop wasn’t. After his wife died, and he resolved the grief process, he eventually applied for and was accepted as a delayed vocation. God called him well before the bishop, and the bishop most definitely was not going to call him while he was married, although God was.

The second issue does not disprove my point; had the bishop of Nebraska not called them, they would not have been ordained.

And I have yet to meet any priest who would say that God did not call him; but the bottom line is that unless the bishop calls a man to ordination, he will not be a priest. And whether the issue is that he is a cradle Catholic and married, or that the bishop has an issue with some aspect of the person’s life/views/attitudes/inclinations, the results are the same; the person may feel that God is not just gently suggesting a vocation, but almost screaming it,but unless the bishop calls, he will not be ordained.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You and I are, I suspect, talking past each other. As to your first comment, I will give an example. There is a priest in southern California, whose daughter lives in my parish. He comes to visit about once er year.

According to him, God was calling him well before his wife died. the bishop wasn’t. After his wife died, and he resolved the grief process, he eventually applied for and was accepted as a delayed vocation. God called him well before the bishop, and the bishop most definitely was not going to call him while he was married, although God was.

The second issue does not disprove my point; had the bishop of Nebraska not called them, they would not have been ordained.

And I have yet to meet any priest who would say that God did not call him; but the bottom line is that unless the bishop calls a man to ordination, he will not be a priest. And whether the issue is that he is a cradle Catholic and married, or that the bishop has an issue with some aspect of the person’s life/views/attitudes/inclinations, the results are the same; the person may feel that God is not just gently suggesting a vocation, but almost screaming it,but unless the bishop calls, he will not be ordained.

During discernment for the deaconate, which I did not become a deacon BTW, I read a book that was recommended by our formation director, “Weeds Among the Wheat,” by Fr Thomas Green.

Essentially, understanding God’s call involves paying attention to the doors that open and those that close. Prayer is the essential element on this.

As the Bishop of Nebraska opened the door for the men who were previously rejected, it was God working through the Bishop who opened these doors.

I’m sure the men wondered when they were rejected, that God was not calling them.

I don’t know I don’t know the details in this regard.

But the call from God always brings peace with the decision you make.

I know when I left the Deaconate program, I felt total peace as Fr Green had written about in his book. It was the right move BTW, for a changed in my home life followed which would’ve prevented me from making it through the five years of training.

Jim

 

[Catholic_Lady]

I am sorry, but this is ridiculous!

Any man, priest especially, who sees anything sexual at all in the washing of the feet, as Christ did, as anything more than service, should be ashamed of themselves.

Agreed.