Cardinal Sarah praises ad orientem worship, suggests appendix to Roman Missal [CWN]

[twf]

I don’t think we should be arguing over which format of the Mass is better.

The Holy Spirit guided the Church in Vatican II and gave us the Novus Ordo, which became the ordinary.

Unless the Holy Spirit guides the Church into something different, please don’t try and trash the ordinary format.

Jim

This isn’t quite correct. The Novus Ordo was not promulgated by Vatican II. The Council Fathers called for certain reforms to the liturgy…a committee established by Pope Paul VI eventually gave us what we now know as the Novus Ordo. Many of us would argue that the committee went much farther than the Council texts actually called for. That being said, I have absolutely no issue with the Novus Ordo itself…my issue is with how it is celebrated in some parishes. The Novus Ordo chanted, with the use of incense, and even some parts in Latin seems closer to what Vatican II called for than what I see in many parishes. Certainly chant, incense, and some Latin is the norm at my cathedral. It was also the norm at the masses in Rome that I attended when there in 2009.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This isn’t quite correct. The Novus Ordo was not promulgated by Vatican II. The Council Fathers called for certain reforms to the liturgy…a committee established by Pope Paul VI eventually gave us what we now know as the Novus Ordo. Many of us would argue that the committee went much farther than the Council texts actually called for. That being said, I have absolutely no issue with the Novus Ordo itself…my issue is with how it is celebrated in some parishes. The Novus Ordo chanted, with the use of incense, and even some parts in Latin seems closer to what Vatican II called for than what I see in many parishes. Certainly chant, incense, and some Latin is the norm at my cathedral. It was also the norm at the masses in Rome that I attended when there in 2009.

Vatican II created the pretext for the Novus Ordo.

The Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy out lined the goal of bringing the people into more active participation in the Liturgy.

It also stated that there would be time for experimentation by the Bishops to see what works best.

I remember when we began using the NO, it was a struggle because Catholics were not use to singing the hymns and praying the responses vocally.

It eventually evolved to what we have today and few Catholic want to go back, most wouldn’t even know how.

Jim

 

[Brendan_64]

It eventually evolved to what we have today and few Catholic want to go back, most wouldn’t even know how.

But what we have today is priests (and parishes) making up their own version of the Liturgy off their own bat. Ad-libbing, adding things, altering parts, leaving bits out, deploying armies of extraordinary ministers in ordinary situations where they are not necessary, creating all sorts of ‘lay-ministries’ just for the sake of getting more people ‘involved’. Is this really what Sacrosanctum Concilium called for? Liturgy where the actual word of Vatican II is contradicted?

Active participation is not a case of everyone being physically active and involved in a busy way, it is about being spiritually active and involved, it does not mean the laity have to physically do more things.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Brendan

But what we have today is priests (and parishes) making up their own version of the Liturgy off their own bat.

This is rare and if you think there were no abuses in the TLM before Vatican II, think again.

When I grew up before Vatican II, people in my parish went to the priest who said the Mass the fastest and it was known he skipped parts.

Ad-libbing, adding things, altering parts, leaving bits out, deploying armies of extraordinary ministers in ordinary situations where they are not necessary, creating all sorts of ‘lay-ministries’ just for the sake of getting more people ‘involved’. Is this really what Sacrosanctum Concilium called for?

Well this is your opinion, but the decision in the use of EMHC’s and ministers of the cup is left up to the pastors of the parish, under the direction of the Bishop.

I know it upsets some people when they have to receive from a lay person instead of the priest and today even as in the past when the NO was first introduced, people will go to the other side of the church if necessary, to avoid receiving from a law person. The Bishops have condemned this practice in the USA.

Active participation is not a case of everyone being physically active and involved in a busy way, it is about being spiritually active and involved, it does not mean the laity have to physically do more things.

The Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy calls for active participation of the people in the Mass and this means physically active, in singing of hymns, responses to the parts of the Mass, doing readings, EMHC’s and ministers of the cup where needed.

Where they are needed is up to the pastor, not up to disgruntled lay people.

Jim

 

[Denise1957]

But what we have today is priests (and parishes) making up their own version of the Liturgy off their own bat. Ad-libbing, adding things, altering parts, leaving bits out, deploying armies of extraordinary ministers in ordinary situations where they are not necessary, creating all sorts of ‘lay-ministries’ just for the sake of getting more people ‘involved’. Is this really what Sacrosanctum Concilium called for? Liturgy where the actual word of Vatican II is contradicted?

Active participation is not a case of everyone being physically active and involved in a busy way, it is about being spiritually active and involved, it does not mean the laity have to physically do more things.

Just a few observations. It can be difficult to know what to expect at Mass these days, with all of the options that are allowed. At one parish that I attended, sometimes the Kyrie was chanted in Greek, and sometimes in English. There wasn’t a standard - the priest just seemed to be experimenting. I can understand doing this, but it can be confusing for the laity. The OF format was not designed for the use of Latin, which Vll called for. Why didn’t the committee that formed the OF follow all of the Vll guidelines? Vll also called for Gregorian chant to have pride of place, but isn’t used in all parishes.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Just a few observations. It can be difficult to know what to expect at Mass these days, with all of the options that are allowed. At one parish that I attended, sometimes the Kyrie was chanted in Greek, and sometimes in English. There wasn’t a standard - the priest just seemed to be experimenting. I can understand doing this, but it can be confusing for the laity. The OF format was not designed for the use of Latin, which Vll called for. Why didn’t the committee that formed the OF follow all of the Vll guidelines? Vll also called for Gregorian chant to have pride of place, but isn’t used in all parishes.

I’ve attended the OF at a local Benedictine Monastery where parts of the Mass are sung in Gregorian chant.

It works as well, but not as well as the Trappist Monastery where the parts are chanted in English.

Jim

 

[Denise1957]

I’ve attended the OF at a local Benedictine Monastery where parts of the Mass are sung in Gregorian chant.

It works as well, but not as well as the Trappist Monastery where the parts are chanted in English.

Jim

It makes sense that the OF Mass wouldn’t work as well being sung in Gregorian chant, because the Mass wasn’t designed for it. It was designed to be said or sung in the vernacular.

 

[Denise1957]

I can understand wanting to put traditional elements into the OF, such as incense, Latin, chant. However, one of the traditional elements which the OF does not seem able to accommodate is silence and contemplative prayer during Mass, which the old form did accommodate very well. Here’s the second of the LMS articles on the subject of how the OF does not allow for this (contemplative prayer), since it was designed that way. (I’m not posting it to disparage the OF in any way whatsoever. I’m just trying to be realistic and practical) :

lmschairman.org/2014/02/the-death-of-reform-of-reform-part-2.html

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It makes sense that the OF Mass wouldn’t work as well being sung in Gregorian chant, because the Mass wasn’t designed for it. It was designed to be said or sung in the vernacular.

I disagree that the OF was not designed for Gregorian Chant, for Vatican II placed high value on keeping Gregorian Chant as part of the Mass, and they did.

The only difference between the Monasteries is understanding what was sung.

The Trappist translated the Latin Gregorian Chant into English and did it’s beautiful.

The Benedictine Monastery kept parts of the OF in Latin, except on Thursdays where the entire OF is in Latin sung in Gregorian Chant. This also includes the Liturgy of the Hours for Thursday, is all Gregorian Chant in Latin.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I can understand wanting to put traditional elements into the OF, such as incense, Latin, chant. However, one of the traditional elements which the OF does not seem able to accommodate is silence and contemplative prayer during Mass, which the old form did accommodate very well. Here’s the second of the LMS articles on the subject of how the OF does not allow for this (contemplative prayer), since it was designed that way. (I’m not posting it to disparage the OF in any way whatsoever. I’m just trying to be realistic and practical) :

lmschairman.org/2014/02/the-death-of-reform-of-reform-part-2.html

Not sure what you’re understanding of Contemplative Prayer is, but any contemplative, which I’m a member of a Contemplative Order, OCDS, will find contemplation in either format.

The average parish parishioner is not going to be a contemplative and in the days before Vatican II, when the TLM was the ordinary, people just ended up daydreaming.

There was a problem with the TLM, which is why Vatican II called for a reform of the liturgy.

If there wasn’t a major problem, the Holy Spirit would’ve inspired the Bishops to leave it alone.

Jim

 

[Denise1957]

Not sure what you’re understanding of Contemplative Prayer is, but any contemplative, which I’m a member of a Contemplative Order, OCDS, will find contemplation in either format.

Did you read the linked article? It gives a good description of contemplative prayer according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Also, where does the OF allow for contemplative prayer? What parts of the Mass allow for it?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Did you read the linked article? It gives a good description of contemplative prayer according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Also, where does the OF allow for contemplative prayer? What parts of the Mass allow for it?

Contemplation comes from God, in being in the presence of God and loving him, whether in vocal or silent prayer.

The silence at the end of receiving Holy Communion is the deepest level of contemplative prayer in either format.

Silence throughout the entire Mass is not necessary for contemplation.

Jim

 

[Denise1957]

Contemplation comes from God, in being in the presence of God and loving him, whether in vocal or silent prayer.

The silence at the end of receiving Holy Communion is the deepest level of contemplative prayer in either format.

Silence throughout the entire Mass is not necessary for contemplation.

Jim

Yes, there is a little time after receiving communion for contemplative (silent) prayer. Unless of course the laity are expected to sing along with a hymn during communion.

You mention above that silence throughout the entire Mass is not necessary for contemplation. I would agree. Is there such a thing as a Mass which has only silence from the laity for the entire Mass? I’ve not ever heard of one.

Regarding vocal or silent prayer being contemplative (as you mention above), how exactly does engaging mainly in vocal prayer lend itself to contemplation of God? I’d just like to know how it’s done - I’m not disagreeing that it can be done.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, there is a little time after receiving communion for contemplative (silent) prayer. Unless of course the laity are expected to sing along with a hymn during communion.

You mention above that silence throughout the entire Mass is not necessary for contemplation. I would agree. Is there such a thing as a Mass which has only silence from the laity for the entire Mass? I’ve not ever heard of one.

Regarding vocal or silent prayer being contemplative (as you mention above), how exactly does engaging mainly in vocal prayer lend itself to contemplation of God? I’d just like to know how it’s done - I’m not disagreeing that it can be done.

First off, contemplation is a gift from God, not something we do.

We open ourselves to God whether in vocal prayer or silent prayer and through grace, He brings us to contemplation.

St Teresa of Avila used the term, “Mental Prayer,” whether using vocal prayers or silent prayer. It’s being aware in the presence of God and understanding just who it is you’re praying to.

People find contemplation in the Liturgy of the Hours when prayed as a group, so contemplation isn’t limited to just quiet prayer. God is the one who brings a soul to contemplation, regardless how they’re praying.

Jim

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Contemplation comes from God, in being in the presence of God and loving him, whether in vocal or silent prayer.

The silence at the end of receiving Holy Communion is the deepest level of contemplative prayer in either format.

Silence throughout the entire Mass is not necessary for contemplation.

Jim

I agree with this. Besides, in the EOF laity can do and are even encouraged to do “pious practices” like the Rosary if they are unable to follow the text of the Mass, but “praying the Mass” is the best form of prayer. For example, here.

 

[Denise1957]

First off, contemplation is a gift from God, not something we do.

We open ourselves to God whether in vocal prayer or silent prayer and through grace, He brings us to contemplation.

St Teresa of Avila used the term, “Mental Prayer,” whether using vocal prayers or silent prayer. It’s being aware in the presence of God and understanding just who it is you’re praying to.

People find contemplation in the Liturgy of the Hours when prayed as a group, so contemplation isn’t limited to just quiet prayer. God is the one who brings a soul to contemplation, regardless how they’re praying.

Jim

Okay, thanks for the explanation. So how does one tell if they have a gift from God to be able to contemplate Him? Is it only for special people?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Okay, thanks for the explanation. So how does one tell if they have a gift from God to be able to contemplate Him? Is it only for special people?

You won’t have to ask the question, that’s how you’ll know.

Jim

 

[Denise1957]

You won’t have to ask the question, that’s how you’ll know.

Jim

Not really an answer. I think that any Catholic should be able to contemplate God. It shouldn’t be only for “contemplatives,” which seems a bit elitist to me.

So would you agree that the OF only encourages vocal prayer and contemplation, except perhaps after receiving communion?

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Yes, there is a little time after receiving communion for contemplative (silent) prayer. Unless of course the laity are expected to sing along with a hymn during communion.

You mention above that silence throughout the entire Mass is not necessary for contemplation. I would agree. Is there such a thing as a Mass which has only silence from the laity for the entire Mass? I’ve not ever heard of one.

Regarding vocal or silent prayer being contemplative (as you mention above), how exactly does engaging mainly in vocal prayer lend itself to contemplation of God? I’d just like to know how it’s done - I’m not disagreeing that it can be done.

St. John Paul II called the Rosary a contemplative prayer in his encyclical Rosarium Virginis Mariae.

You have to understand, though, that there are generally two ways the word contemplation is used. The first way is as the “active” contemplation, which is something we can do: it is to be more open to God’s presence and love. As the Catechism states:

2715 Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. “I look at him and he looks at me”: this is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy curé used to say while praying before the tabernacle. This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self. His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men. Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the “interior knowledge of our Lord,” the more to love him and follow him.

See what it says there: “Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ.” Such is the Holy Mass and also many of the traditional devotions such as the Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy, etc.

The second way is the “passive”, in which the soul is less active and God takes the initiative. Here we get a taste of heaven, and only God can give it. As the Catechism states:

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision.”

 

[Denise1957]

+JMJ+

St. John Paul II called the Rosary a contemplative prayer in his encyclical Rosarium Virginis Mariae.

You have to understand, though, that there are generally two ways the word contemplation is used. The first way is as the “active” contemplation, which is something we can do: it is to be more open to God’s presence and love. As the Catechism states:

2715 Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. “I look at him and he looks at me”: this is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy curé used to say while praying before the tabernacle. This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self. His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men. Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the “interior knowledge of our Lord,” the more to love him and follow him.

See what is says there: “Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ.” Such is the Holy Mass and also many of the traditional devotions such as the Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy, etc.

The second way is the “passive”, in which the soul is less active and God takes the initiative. Here we get a taste of heaven, and only God can give it. As the Catechism states:

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision.”

Thanks for the explanation. There isn’t much time, however, to fix one’s gaze on Jesus at Mass (OF) except in a verbal manner by either listening or responding. Which is fine, but if one wants to have non-verbal contemplation, then the OF Mass isn’t really conducive to this. That’s how it was designed - to be pretty much completely verbal in nature. That’s the point I’m trying to make, and which the article that I linked to makes.