Cardinal: Some not satisfied even after pope's Tridentine Mass decree

[Adonis33]

The Bishops don’t actually have to make the Mass available upon every and any request. He should be willing to make the Mass available, but it requires much more than just a few people of a parish, making the request to their pastor.

I think its worth while to read through the “ENTIRE,” document at the USSCB website, and be sure to pay attention to the questions and answers at the end.

usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf

Jim

I never stated that Bishops were required to establish a TLM - but it seems to me that it is disingenuous to have a Papal policy making the TLM more accessable, Bishops deciding they do not want TLM in their diocese, then when people complain about not having a TLM in their diocese, state “Well see? Nothing is good enough for them!”.

In San Antonio - we have a TLM set up at (ironically) St. Pius X Church. Many people attend. Me complaining about not having more access would be unjustified. However - not all cities are blessed with this accomodation.

 

[ncjohn]

I never stated that Bishops were required to establish a TLM - but it seems to me that it is disingenuous to have a Papal policy making the TLM more accessable, Bishops deciding they do not want TLM in their diocese, then when people complain about not having a TLM in their diocese, state “Well see? Nothing is good enough for them!”.

Where that is happening you would be absolutely correct, Adonis. That is not at all what the article is addressing however.

Peace,

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=ncjohn;4211083]If nothing else, the Cardinal’s statements again make it pretty clear that the expansion of the EF is NOT part of a master plan to eventually scrap the Pauline Mass and return to the EF

That’s exactly what we who attend the EF. have been trying to tell everyone who so fears it…since Summorum Pontificum was first promulgated.

, but is instead a way to meet the needs and the desire of those for whom the EF is a preference. Despite the many attempts to read the expansion as affirmation that the Pope believes the OF to be deficient in some way, there are continued statements reflecting exactly the opposite.

Well, he did say:
"After the Council… in place of the liturgy as the fruit of organic development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it,** as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product**” - Pope Benedict XVI

Hopefully the clarifications, when they finally come out, will settle the dust on the issues that were vague in the original Motu as to what comprises a “stable community” of those desiring the EF, and what is a reasonable accomodation to filling the needs when such a community exists. Until then I’m sure we’ll continue to see the varying demands due to the confusion of what is actually intended and needed.

Peace,

"However, since it is the Pope’s intention … to grant this treasure for the good of the Church, in a place where there are no priests the best option would be to offer a celebration according to the Extraordinary Form in one of the parish Sunday Masses.

"It would be a Mass for everyone, and everyone, including younger generations, would benefit from the riches of the extraordinary rite, for example, those moments of contemplation that have disappeared in the Novus Ordo."
**He also confirmed that he foresees at least one Sunday Mass in the Extraordinary Form per parish in the future even if there isn’t the “consistent and stable group” described in article five of the Motu Proprio, demanding the traditional Latin Mass. **
catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000281.shtml

 

[redrosetea]

What can you say about sheep that think they are the shepherd?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

My theory is that there are some people in the traditional movement because they really love the liturgy prayed in the traditional way. Then there are others who are in the movement because they love to complain. Perhaps the ones from the first group will come back to the church, and the second group can stay in the SSPX and schismatic groups

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Perhaps the ones from the first group will come back to the church, and the second group can stay in the SSPX and schismatic groups

We are speaking of those faithful Catholics who prefer the EF. True many of them are quite agressive, but also many are not.

We must remember that there are hundreds of Priests in Rome, and letters are sent out, which may not consider the lack of priests in many areas. If there are only a few people who prefer the EF, it is not logical or in the “common good” to replace a well attended OF Mass with the EF every week. I feel the Bishops should not be criticized for considering the majority in requesting the scheduling of the EF.

Lux

 

[Joysong]

Kathleen Elsie:

Still no EF in the Greensburg area. Nearest is over 35 miles from us.

Kathleen,

In October, we are going to see about 15 parishes closed. Our Bishop is working very hard with the clergy to make the most advantageous distribution of clergy in the most needed areas of attendance. As you know, many of our priests are elderly. Some have either retired or died, making the available amount of priests very limited. It is a critical decision to close a parish and many will be disgruntled and unable to accept this.

For the Bishop to pull from the already scarce clergy to initiate an EF liturgy in parishes for the few who desire it, is just not feasible at this time, sorry that it may be for many.

May God grant patient acceptance to those who are still waiting and may not be able to celebrate the mass of their preference at this time. It is a sacrifice of the heart that will be for the greater good of the Body of Christ, for the cross is always salvific if embraced with “thy will be done.”

 

[maggiemay2u]

We have Catholics, many on CAF, who are fighting Rome on the internet every day over abortion, embryonic stem cell,euthanasia, etc. Why would anyone be shocked that there might be a handful of folks who are impatient about EF, too?

I have talked to the pastors of the churches I most often attend (I travel) and am confident at least some of them will get EF as soon as they can get someone trained. The others, well, they’re stuck in the cafeteria mode. They like multi-languages and dancing girls at mass. I think they do us a disservice. These priests, as I’m sure others have noticed, tend towards liberal values across the board. I don’t know why this is true, it’s simply what I have observed.

I hope we can give our bishops who are working to bring EF to nearby churches some breathing room. My heart goes out to all who can’t get to parishes where EF is offered.

 

[CradleCath]

My theory is that there are some people in the traditional movement because they really love the liturgy prayed in the traditional way. Then there are others who are in the movement because they love to complain. Perhaps the ones from the first group will come back to the church, and the second group can stay in the SSPX and schismatic groups

I can assure you that not everyone who loves the TLM & the theology behind it, is in the SSPX. I, for one, have never been inside of an SSPX chapel…nor do I personally know anyone who has. While I could never give even tacit approval to a Church whose starting members defied the authority of our Holy Father, I can understand how some became devotees of the SSPX Mass. I don’t agree with this “solution”, but I’ve seen both men & women literally driven from their parish…because they didn’t embrace the Novus Ordo as it was prayed there. We, of course, could never mention our dissatisfaction with the Novus Ordo to our priests, nor to the average Catholic in the pew. We have been treated like outsiders & literally have had no place to turn, no one who really cared about our confusion.

Niether do I “love to complain”. I spent over 40 yrs. attending a Mass in which the blending of the laity & the clergy was prominent, the Sacrificial nature of the Mass was diminished. the penetential quality of the prayers of the Tridentine Mass were swept away like old dirt…with “modern mankind” assuming that neither the priest nor the laity need to plead with God for the “worthiness” to celebrate Mass or to participate in it. The lay Lectors, the Greeters??, (why in the WORLD do we need human “greeters” for God’s house) the Ushers & the EEM’s stroll around the Church, during Mass, trying to find their “place”…a “place” that would make it convenient to perform their duties…duties that should have been the responsibility of the priest, anyway.

I have listened to Catholic Lite “homilies” carefully crafted in order to offend NO ONE/ask NOTHING of anyone present. A particular one that I remember was held on the feast of “The Holy Family” & equated two gay men, with adopted children…with the family of Joseph, Mary & Christ…"After all, it doesn’t matter about the make-up of the family…there are so many different kinds of “families” today, etc., etc., ETC., ad infinaturm…but, I held on to my faith

The Holy Father is intelligent enough to see what has happened to the Mass, the laity & to the priesthood & is trying to make a place within Catholicism for both those who have opted for schism & those who simply stayed within the Church & suffered. Can you not do the same? To call Traditional Catholics “complainers” & SSPXer’s in a very unkind thing to do & it’s gone on long enough. If this continues, you can expect more posts that correct your limited vision.

 

[CradleCath]

We are speaking of those faithful Catholics who prefer the EF. True many of them are quite agressive, but also many are not.

We must remember that there are hundreds of Priests in Rome, and letters are sent out, which may not consider the lack of priests in many areas. If there are only a few people who prefer the EF, it is not logical or in the “common good” to replace a well attended OF Mass with the EF every week. I feel the Bishops should not be criticized for considering the majority in requesting the scheduling of the EF.

Lux

Logical, using today’s meaning of the word…will there be enough people to justify turning on the heat, to “justify” using the priests time…maybe not. Will it renew the Catholic Church…I think so.

For the “common good”, I’m sure that this Mass is for the “common good” of ALL Catholics. . The true worship of Christ’s Sacrifice, the penitential rite…the old “prayers at the foot of the altar,” recited by priests and other ministers before Mass, the last Gospel & the Canon of the Mass…just might drive home to some Catholics the wholeness of their faith. The naming of “all the saints” might bring down more blessings than any of you can imagine & I have seen what praying this Mass has done for the priests who do so.

I don’t think that the regional priest “shortage” will last much longer. If it does & two Sunday Masses are celebrqated at your parish, one can be the Novus Ordo…one the TLM. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I wish they would chant the whole mass. Did they used to chant the mass before Vatican II?

I can assure you that not everyone who loves the TLM & the theology behind it, is in the SSPX. I, for one, have never been inside of an SSPX chapel…nor do I personally know anyone who has. While I could never give even tacit approval to a Church whose starting members defied the authority of our Holy Father, I can understand how some became devotees of the SSPX Mass. I don’t agree with this “solution”, but I’ve seen both men & women literally driven from their parish…because they didn’t embrace the Novus Ordo as it was prayed there. We, of course, could never mention our dissatisfaction with the Novus Ordo to our priests, nor to the average Catholic in the pew. We have been treated like outsiders & literally have had no place to turn, no one who really cared about our confusion.

Niether do I “love to complain”. I spent over 40 yrs. attending a Mass in which the blending of the laity & the clergy was prominent, the Sacrificial nature of the Mass was diminished. the penetential quality of the prayers of the Tridentine Mass were swept away like old dirt…with “modern mankind” assuming that neither the priest nor the laity need to plead with God for the “worthiness” to celebrate Mass or to participate in it. The lay Lectors, the Greeters??, (why in the WORLD do we need human “greeters” for God’s house) the Ushers & the EEM’s stroll around the Church, during Mass, trying to find their “place”…a “place” that would make it convenient to perform their duties…duties that should have been the responsibility of the priest, anyway.

I have listened to Catholic Lite “homilies” carefully crafted in order to offend NO ONE/ask NOTHING of anyone present. A particular one that I remember was held on the feast of “The Holy Family” & equated two gay men, with adopted children…with the family of Joseph, Mary & Christ…"After all, it doesn’t matter about the make-up of the family…there are so many different kinds of “families” today, etc., etc., ETC., ad infinaturm…but, I held on to my faith

The Holy Father is intelligent enough to see what has happened to the Mass, the laity & to the priesthood & is trying to make a place within Catholicism for both those who have opted for schism & those who simply stayed within the Church & suffered. Can you not do the same? To call Traditional Catholics “complainers” & SSPXer’s in a very unkind thing to do & it’s gone on long enough. If this continues, you can expect more posts that correct your limited vision.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I don’t think that the regional priest “shortage” will last much longer. If it does & two Sunday Masses are celebrqated at your parish, one can be the Novus Ordo…one the TLM. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

Is the sarcasm necessary?

And you have some private knowledge of immortal priests or crowded seminaries?

I’ll try to make this more simple so you will undrstand.

1000 people in a Parish.

975 prefer OF

only 2 Masses, and you are saying an overworked priest should be trained to give 25 people their preference, while ignoring the preference of the other hundreds of people who must attend a very crowded Mass or one not their preferred form?

Lux

 

[Joysong]

Lux:

CradleCath:

I’m sure

that this Mass is for the “common good” of ALL Catholics. The true worship of Christ’s Sacrifice,

only 2 Masses, and you are saying an overworked priest should be trained to give 25 people their preference, while ignoring the preference of the other hundreds of people who must attend a very crowded Mass or one not their preferred form?

I think in her elitism she believes that when the rest of the parish is obligated to attend this “true worship” they will come to love it, realizing its “superiority” and request that the OF be eliminated in favor of the EF. An incredibly naive and unrealistic sentiment.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi Joy,

Yes, it totally baffles me that some argue that the minority have the “right” to their preference on a more regular basis, while the preference of the majority is not considered, and it is the ordinary form.

I am not arguing against the EF, only that everyone’s preference must be considered.

Lux

 

[Neil_Anthony]

…] I’ve seen both men & women literally driven from their parish…because they didn’t embrace the Novus Ordo as it was prayed there. We, of course, could never mention our dissatisfaction with the Novus Ordo to our priests, nor to the average Catholic in the pew. We have been treated like outsiders & literally have had no place to turn, no one who really cared about our confusion.

How would anyone know that you didn’t embrace the Novus Ordo? If you could never mention your dissatisfaction, how would they know? And did they really drag you out of the parish against your will? They could read your mind?

I suspect, rather, that you kept complaining and they told you to stop complaining. People who respect each other stop complaining once a decision has been made. Otherwise, why would anyone care if you preferred a different type of mass? It makes no sense.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I think in her elitism she believes that when the rest of the parish is obligated to attend this “true worship” they will come to love it, realizing its “superiority” and request that the OF be eliminated in favor of the EF. An incredibly naive and unrealistic sentiment.

Why is this incredibly naive and unrealistic sentiment? I wonder how many that have only heard how horrible the EF is just might like it if they ever attended one. Not every week in every parish, but, near them or even a couple times a year in their own parish.

I also wonder how much time and treasure is being sent away from the parishes that have made the people that would like the EF feel unwelcome.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Why is this incredibly naive and unrealistic sentiment? I wonder how many that have only heard how horrible the EF is just might like it if they ever attended one. Not every week in every parish, but, near them or even a couple times a year in their own parish…

Every week in every parish is what is requested. I haven’t heard any criticism of a couple times a year.

I also wonder how much time and treasure is being sent away from the parishes that have made the people that would like the EF feel unwelcome

Unwelcome? or resistant to selfish demands?

Lux

 

[Joysong]

K. Elsie:

Originally Posted by Joysong
I think in her elitism she believes that when the rest of the parish is obligated to attend this “true worship” they will come to love it, realizing its “superiority” and request that the OF be eliminated in favor of the EF. An incredibly naive and unrealistic sentiment.

Why is this incredibly naive and unrealistic sentiment?

Any person who does not realize sacrifice of the Mass is the most sublime act of worship, no matter which form, renders an insult to Almighty God when they call “their” preference the “true worship” of “superiority.” It suggests either naiveté or a need for catechesis. It is rather a personal unrealistic opinion formed without full knowledge of the Mass, and rendered through sentimentalism.

 

[maggiemay2u]

Every week in every parish is what is requested. I haven’t heard any criticism of a couple times a year.
Unwelcome? or resistant to selfish demands?
Lux

Come to my sister’s parish. That’s the one with the “round of applause” for the music and dancers on Good Friday. It’s the one with the dancing girls, wives of deacons assisting in the sermon (yes I know the difference, before anyone wish to clarify), Lack of anything approaching reverence towards the tabernacle, and lastly, and most significantly here, multi-language masses.

The one language never used…Latin. The pastor, a former seminary teacher, doesn’t like the Latin mass, so it’s out. BTW, he was in the seminary when Latin was still the norm, so lack of familiarity is not the issue.

I do believe the reason for mass in the vernacular was to allow the faithful to participate fully. II have been to mass in many other countries…masses are said in their vernacular, not mine.

 

[drforjc]

Hi Joy,

Yes, it totally baffles me that some argue that the minority have the “right” to their preference on a more regular basis, while the preference of the majority is not considered, and it is the ordinary form.

I am not arguing against the EF, only that everyone’s preference must be considered.

Lux

Or could it be that B16 wishes the forms to influence each other, as he and and many liturgical bloggers have written about? Perhaps there is more than just “preference” at work here.
Fr. Z calls it the pope’s “Marshall Plan.”