Cardinal: Some not satisfied even after pope's Tridentine Mass decree

[KathleenElsie]

Any person who does not realize sacrifice of the Mass is the most sublime act of worship, no matter which form, renders an insult to Almighty God when they call “their” preference the “true worship” of “superiority.” It suggests either naiveté or a need for catechesis. It is rather a personal unrealistic opinion formed without full knowledge of the Mass, and rendered through sentimentalism.

Would you just sit there when the words of the consecration are changed by the priest? Would you just sit there and listen to the one person that should be defending the form and matter of the Mass making a mockery of it? How about when the priest is giving a homily and he could not remember John 3:16 because he tried to change the words to be gender neutral?

We do go because the Eucharist is the reason to be there.

I pray that your parish is one of the many that celebrate the OF with reverence and respect.

I also pray that our parish will someday have that opportunity again also. A reverent and respectful OF is a beautiful thing. Unfortunately not what everyone is getting.

I would rather have one OF Mass in our parish that was celebrated properly then three that are not.

PAX

 

[Joysong]

“The Eucharist should never become a point of contrast and a point of separation,” Cardinal Castrillon said at the Sept. 16 conference. “What is more important: the mystery of God who becomes bread? … or the language by which we celebrate the mystery?”

The cardinal said the Mass – in whatever language it is celebrated – must be a service motivated by love and “never a sword” used against other Christians.

I believe it is important to take the Cardinal’s words seriously, and put aside any immature rationalizations whereby one assumes that their rights are being violated if they aren’t able to attend the mass of their preference. The Mass is the ‘mystery of God who becomes our bread.’ All of us who partake of this bread are truly and absolutely one. As St. Augustine said, we become what You are!" [mystically]
Catechism:

1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us.

There is no other prayer that we can enter into with devotion that has the sublime effects and graces as the Mass. As our eucharistic prayer says, “We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in Your presence and serve you.” I am always astounded that anyone would dare to ridicule the mass of any form whatsoever, and brashly put forth reasons as to why they are entitled to complain. Many throughout the world are not given the gift of our faith, OR our mass. I trust that God expects more from us to show the world how highly we treasure this unspeakable gift. Every mass I attend, I offer it, among other intentions, to thank Him that I am there and that He bestowed on me the grace to be Catholic.

As I reflect on my dispositions at the time of the changes, I understood the Holy Spirit was calling for renewal of the Mass. If I were to self-righteously proclaim, “I will NOT serve,” that would be a dishonorable statement unworthy of God’s holy sacrifice; it makes me wonder if today’s rebels realize how offensive this is to Him. If the Pope says tomorrow that the EF will replace the OF, you will not find me running to the internet to complain about my “rights” and my refusal to accept the old liturgy. If the Spirit moves, I listen, with gratitude for the privilege of celebrating, no matter what the accidentals be, provided the essence is unchanged. And the essence will NEVER change; so all this nitpicking is really about sentiment, tradition, preference, etc., rather than so-called “superior” or “true” worship.

It is very difficult for me to deal with this constant wrangling, and I suspect it may have been the feelings of the Cardinal who must read these complaints day in and day out to the point of ad nauseum.

 

[pnewton]

What I find ironic is that just this year statements by the Cardinal were circulating that some took to mean that the TLM would be mandated in every single parish. I have been criticized for being sceptical when it comes to rumors here, but at least this time it seems scepticism was the truer course. Until then, contintue to post complaints, demanding the TLM in every parish.

“They do not know the harm they are doing,” Cardinal Castrillon said, adding that when the Vatican does not accept their demands immediately “they go directly to the Internet” and post their complaints.

 

[CradleCath]

Lux et Tenebrae;4236177]Is the sarcasm necessary?

And you have some private knowledge of immortal priests or crowded seminaries

?

Is sarcasm necessary??
Several days have passed since I posted my message. I haven’t had time to answer yours & it’s quite possible that you aren’t even reading this thread anymore. HOWEVER, I can’t just leave your contentions here for all to read…without a rebuttal.

The knowledge I have concerning the regional priest shortage & full seminaries shouldn’t be private…but judging by your reaction, maybe it is.
ROME: The Pontifical North American College is welcoming 61 seminarians in its fall classes beginning in mid-October, according to Catholic News Service. This is the Seminaries LARGEST incoming class in 40 years. Monsignor Robert Gruss, vice rector for student life, told CNS that the college, which is sponsored by the U.S. bishops, will have 208 seminarians total this year.

LINCOLN, NE.
For example, in the area of religious vocations, in the last five years, 19 young men were ordained priests, and currently 46 young men are in seminary studies for the Diocese of Lincoln. There are 114 diocesan priests in active ministry, 71 of whom were ordained after 1967. There have been no defections from the priesthood since 1976.
KENRICK GLENNON SEMINARY in St. Louis, Mo. . At the present time, over one hundred students are part of the seminary. Its two components are the Kenrick School of Theology and the Cardinal Glennon College program.

AND, the FSSP seminaries are full & they are building more.

1000 people in a Parish.

975 prefer OF

Since it seems that your diocese is not generating very many vocations, I’d ask myself how many of these 1,000 parishioners actually attend Mass regularly. Here are the stats for a diocese in Pa. only 34% of the Catholic population attend a weekend Mass. Therefore, if this particular parish is within that diocese, it would mean that 300 people TOTAL attended your 2 Masses. In this same diocese the average parish has 51% of it’s total available seating at weekend Masses…EMPTY.

only 2 Masses, and you are saying an overworked priest should be trained to give 25 people their preference, while ignoring the preference of the other hundreds of people who must attend a very crowded Mass or one not their preferred form?

Not al all. What I AM saying is that, if one of your Masses is a Novus Ordo & the other a TLM., your priests might not be so “overworked”.

 

[CradleCath]

How would anyone know that you didn’t embrace the Novus Ordo? If you could never mention your dissatisfaction, how would they know?

They didn’t know. One didn’t go around offering that kind of info in my old parish. They were very close-minded people, sort of like some here.

And did they really drag you out of the parish against your will? They could read your mind?

 

[CradleCath]

Any person who does not realize sacrifice of the Mass is the most sublime act of worship, no matter which form

, renders an insult to Almighty God when they call “their” preference the “true worship” of “superiority.”

BALONEY!! I am assuming that you attend ONLY the Novus Ordo. Hopefully you do so because you think that it is superior in some way. If you don’t, why are you attending it since you now have a choice?

It suggests either naiveté or a need for catechesis. It is rather a personal unrealistic opinion formed without full knowledge of the Mass, and rendered through sentimentalism.

 

[ncjohn]

BALONEY!! I am assuming that you attend ONLY the Novus Ordo. Hopefully you do so because you think that it is superior in some way. If you don’t, why are you attending it since you now have a choice?

Believe it or not, we attend the Novus Ordo because it is our preference to have our liturgy in the vernacular. It is not because we consider it “superior” to the TLM.

We are in agreement with the Holy Father that they are both equal expressions of our devotion and that one is not superior to the other, despite your belief that you “…find the TLM. to be more representative of the whole of Catholicism.”

Joysong made very clear that she considers the Mass is our most sublime worship “no matter which form”.

You are indeed welcome to your preference, but please do not continue to make the mistake of thinking the Church follows your belief that it is “superior”. Such claims lend themselves to making one appear “elitist”. Elistism has nothing to do with not allowing others into your preferred Mass; its definition is
definition of elitism:

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority

You may indeed not be that in the least, but when one continually exalts their own liturgy as “superior” while denigrating that which the Church considers its equal, the words speak volumes.

We really don’t need that kind of squabbling between fellow Catholics.

Peace,

 

[pnewton]

You are indeed welcome to your preference, but please do not continue to make the mistake of thinking the Church follows your belief that it is “superior”. Such claims lend themselves to making one appear “elitist”.

The “BALONEY” didn’t help in post #46 didn’t help. Belittling the opinion of another in that post to elevate one’s own opinion does lend an air of condescension.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

You’ve got to be kidding. I left that parish within the week that another parish started offering a weekly TLM. Where are you getting the idea that I had to be “dragged” from the NO. parish I once attended? Not from my post.

I don’t agree with this “solution”, but I’ve seen both men & women literally driven from their parish…

 

[Joysong]

CradleCath:

1000 people in a Parish.

975 prefer OF

Since it seems that your diocese is not generating very many vocations, I’d ask myself how many of these 1,000 parishioners actually attend Mass regularly. Here are the stats for a diocese in Pa. only 34% of the Catholic population attend a weekend Mass. Therefore, if this particular parish is within that diocese, it would mean that 300 people TOTAL attended your 2 Masses.

Your logic is totally flawed and ridiculous, let alone arrogant. Assuming your figure of 1000 is correctly reduced to 300 by 34%, then we must also reduce YOUR figure of 25 down by the same percentage, which happens to be 8.

Lux may rightfully say then, do we pull a priest to say mass for 8 people when 300 prefer the OF? However, I believe she was not speaking about those who do NOT attend the mass, but those who DO come to mass; i.e., 1000 on any given Sunday, compared to 25 who desire the TLM. The bishops do not assign priests based on those who stay home, only on those who are actually present.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Your logic is totally flawed and ridiculous, let alone arrogant. Assuming your figure of 1000 is correctly reduced to 300 by 34%, then we must also reduce YOUR figure of 25 down by the same percentage, which happens to be 8.

Lux may rightfully say then, do we pull a priest to say mass for 8 people when 300 prefer the OF? However, I believe she was not speaking about those who do NOT attend the mass, but those who DO come to mass; i.e., 1000 on any given Sunday, compared to 25 who desire the TLM. The bishops do not assign priests based on those who stay home, only on those who are actually present.

Thus the reason for fewer Mass times, combined parishes and closed parishes in our Diocese. Also the money, time and talent goes down proportionately with the number of opportunities to worship. So the situation becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

Oh I forgot the letter won’t be read till this weekend.

 

[Joysong]

Kathleen,

I don’t understand your point. The last posts were centered on an extremely disproportionate number of people who desire the EF yet expect that a priest should be available to offer a mass exclusively for the small handful who desire it. How does this make any sense when there aren’t even enough priests to go around for the OF? True, vocations are lacking, but it is not only in our diocese.

Why then would anyone who desires the TLM feel justified in demanding that each weekend one mass be EF and the second mass be OF when only 25 might be attending the TLM?

As I said, your point is … ?

 

[Joysong]

Also the money, time and talent goes down proportionately with the number of opportunities to worship.

Kathleen,

This was not the first time you commented about money, etc.

I also wonder how much time and treasure is being sent away from the parishes that have made the people that would like the EF feel unwelcome.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4237513&postcount=36

Do you honestly believe the Church is only a money machine and is being hurt by not catering to those who demand the TLM? This is unworthy of a Catholic to even suggest such a thing. As if to say the TLM-ers will punish the Church by voting against her with their pocketbooks, and boy will the priests ever be sorry they didn’t listen to them!!

You have a very poor concept of time and treasure.

Can anyone see why the Cardinal is so disillusioned?

 

[KathleenElsie]

Kathleen,

This was not the first time you commented about money, etc.

Do you honestly believe the Church is only a money machine and is being hurt by not catering to those who demand the TLM? This is unworthy of a Catholic to even suggest such a thing. As if to say the TLM-ers will punish the Church by voting against her with their pocketbooks, and boy will the priests ever be sorry they didn’t listen to them!!

You have a very poor concept of time and treasure.

Can anyone see why the Cardinal is so disillusioned?

Personal remarks about me having a “poor concept” of time and treasure is uncalled for.

As a very active member in my parish I know full well what time and treasure is think you. We just received our yearly form to be filled out for what we do with our time and treasure for our parish. When Fr was at supper with us this week we had quite a discussion on the fact that many that are registered don’t attend nor give of their time, talent or treasure.

By the way, did you go to the Bishop’s Reception last year? If so we might have met.

 

[Joysong]

When Fr was at supper with us this week we had quite a discussion on the fact that many that are registered don’t attend nor give of their time, talent or treasure.

This is a problem in every parish, unfortunately. But your comment seemed to connect the loss of T&T with traditionalists who were leaving the parish because they felt “unwelcome.” In my experience as a Pastoral Council member of my parish, it is NOT the EF people who supposedly leave and hurt the parish, but those who are not attending … period. There just aren’t enough of the EF worshippers in my parish at all. Only one lady requested this mass, and if she were to leave and withhold her treasure, the parish would not be financially crippled. Your asssessment was unrealistic, I believe.

I also wonder how much time and treasure is being sent away from the parishes that have made the people that would like the EF feel unwelcome.

To be honest, even if some of the people who never register or contribute decided to start using their envelopes, their catechesis with regard to sacrificial giving would be so poor as to not affect our income in a substantial manner. It is the people who have a deep faith and are regularly attending mass that provide almost all of the income and talent. You find the same volunteers for just about everything that takes place in the parish.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

**REMINDER:

Please discuss the topic of the thread, not each other. Thank you for your cooperation.**

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

BALONEY!! I am assuming that you attend ONLY the Novus Ordo. Hopefully you do so because you think that it is superior in some way. If you don’t, why are you attending it since you now have a choice?

I did see your post to me, but your ridiculous manipulation of hypothetical figures needs no response, and your attitude in this post demonstrates the reason many Bishops are reluctant to give in to demands.

Lux

 

[I_Believe]

Some things to clarify. Cardinal Hoyos has already prayed the Gregorian Rite, as he calls it. He did so at Westminister Cathedral earlier this year. Not a single Bishop was there in support.

Undetered, he said afterwords, that it is the Pope’s wish that **every parish in the UK would offer the EF. ** Since then, no fewer than 60 priests are training to pray the EF there.

So, there seems a contradiction. He says what he said then, and now he says this. I believe it ties in with the quote from BXVI in France recently, where he said the MP was an act of tolerance.

Frankly, I think they are tired of the arrogance displayed by some who demand to call the shots now. Emboldened by their interpretation of the MP, these people want all of their concerns regarding the crisis, according to their definition of “the crisis”, dealt with in one decisive “house cleaning”.

So yes, I can understand Cardinal Hoyos saying what he has said. These bitter laity and some of their clergy are making unrealistic and imprudent demands which indeed seem to fuel further division, all the while remaining blind to our H.F’s efforts to acknowledge some of their valid concerns.

Their clergy have in essence set up a parallel magisterium, and are, in truth, standing just this side of formal schism.

And it seems BXVI’s “act of tolerance” statement may have been said in frustration. I could be wrong of course, but on one side, he has the SSPX and others saying he hasn’t done enough, and on the other, those who persist in claiming the MP is a step backwards.

He deserves neither of these forms of criticism.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Good evaluation of the situation.

As is very human, each side takes some words of the Holy Father out of context, and uses them to further their own POV.

The GIRM instructs–

Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

It seems as though the supporters of the EF are seeking some sort of liturgical affirmative action, which is an unrealistic demand in view of the fact that both forms are equal in value, and there is a ligitimate need to recognize both requests. So it would seem that some sort of schedule must be worked out which is more dependent on preference of the congregation and priests qualified to celebrate, rather than “every week in every parish”

Lux

 

[pnewton]

And it seems BXVI’s “act of tolerance” statement may have been said in frustration…He deserves neither of these forms of criticism.

As the earlier statement might have been. After the lack of support he received from the bishops in England, he would have had good reason for frustration. When we start trying to look for policy in everything that comes out of the mouths of people like the Cardinal, we often see only what we want. We forget that they have human frailities and righteous anger. We must pray for and support our leadership. In this matter, they truly are trying to do what is best for all the Church. Likewise, we should support each other, desiring what is best for each other, more than what we sant for ourselves.

The whole argument of “I want” and “I prefer” should never cause us to seek our wants and desires first. I know in this type of forum we all love to give our opininion, and that is fine. But when it comes down to action, we should seek the good of the other first.