Cardinal Turkson backs call for reconsideration of just-war tradition [CC]

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The president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace has called for a broad discussion of the just-war theory, suggesting that a papal encyclical on the topic might be appropriate …

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With the advent of ISIS, I find his timing terrible. Would he say there is no just cause to fight these evil cretins? The very survival of our faith came through the Crusades, which would be outlawed if the Cardinal gets his way.

It also would leave soldiers who have to fight these wars in a bad position…
 
Catholic_Press said:
The president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace has called for a broad discussion of the just-war theory, suggesting that a papal encyclical on the topic might be appropriate …

More…
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Oh I hope that it doesn’t result in a new encyclical. We’re have enough new Papla writings to digest right now without adding another one when the current ones have been controversial enough.
 
Catholic_Press said:
The president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace has called for a broad discussion of the just-war theory, suggesting that a papal encyclical on the topic might be appropriate …

More…
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I have seen two articles in the past month alleging that some people at the Vatican have called for abandoning the Church’s just war doctrine. One cited a Vatican conference and this one cited Cardinal Turkson. But I think the reporting is problematic. After reading both articles, I didn’t see anyone arguing that the Church’s just war doctrine should be abandoned. They talked about how just war theory has sometimes been used to legitimize unjust wars, but from what I read they did not say there’s no such thing as a just war.

Be careful to read the actual words of these Vatican people and not what the media Says they said.

In particular I note that Cardinal Turkson is quoted as saying the following: “Too often the ‘just-war theory’ has been used to endorse rather than prevent or limit war.”

Assuming the quote is accurate, it is noteworthy for nearly contradicting the headline of the article. He doesn’t appear to say that war is never permissible but that we should try to “limit” war or prevent it. There’s room right there for the classic teaching that some wars are permissible – wars that fall within the limitations of Catholic doctrine.
 
dmar198 said:
I have seen two articles in the past month alleging that some people at the Vatican have called for abandoning the Church’s just war doctrine. One cited a Vatican conference and this one cited Cardinal Turkson. But I think the reporting is problematic. After reading both articles, I didn’t see anyone arguing that the Church’s just war doctrine should be abandoned. They talked about how just war theory has sometimes been used to legitimize unjust wars, but from what I read they did not say there’s no such thing as a just war.

Be careful to read the actual words of these Vatican people and not what the media Says they said.

In particular I note that Cardinal Turkson is quoted as saying the following: “Too often the ‘just-war theory’ has been used to endorse rather than prevent or limit war.”

Assuming the quote is accurate, it is noteworthy for nearly contradicting the headline of the article. He doesn’t appear to say that war is never permissible but that we should try to “limit” war or prevent it. There’s room right there for the classic teaching that some wars are permissible – wars that fall within the limitations of Catholic doctrine.
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I noticed the quote from Cardinal Turkson also. What I see in the quote, whether it is intended or not, is that the Just War Theory has been abused, and not that there is anything wrong with the theory itself. Whether we like it or not sometimes war is necessary and justified. This is when Just War theory is most useful, not when one country wants to wage war and shoehorns their own justifications to meet that of the Just War theory.

ChadS
 
**According to the Just War Theory a 1st century Jewish revolt against the Roman occupation of Israel would have been allowed.
But the Jewish Messiah did not consent to lead such a war against the brutal Romans.
Instead He advised His followers to obey Rome’s orders and to go the extra mile in doing so.

This Theory was not a part of original Christian theology, but only came about after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.
I think that it is deeply flawed. I notice posters using it in an attempt to justify such insanity as the Mutual Assured Destruction doctrine of nuclear weapons.

It is time for Just War Protocols to be either revised or thrown out altogether.**

ncronline.org/news/peace-justice/catholics-press-nuclear-weapons-ban-un-treaty-review-conference
 
jimcav said:
With the advent of ISIS, I find his timing terrible. Would he say there is no just cause to fight these evil cretins? The very survival of our faith came through the Crusades, which would be outlawed if the Cardinal gets his way.

It also would leave soldiers who have to fight these wars in a bad position…
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👍

Rather, we need a stern encyclical on Islamic fundamentalism… 😦
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
According to the Just War Theory a 1st century Jewish revolt against the Roman occupation of Israel would have been allowed. First, as the Catechism points out, the just war doctrine is a doctrine, not just a theory. Second, I don’t think it’s accurate that the conditions of the just war doctrine allow what you say. CCC 2243 says that a revolt is only justified when there is good hope of success, the resistance won’t cause worse disorders, and all other means of redress have been tried. I don’t think those conditions were met in 1st century Judea.
This Theory was not a part of original Christian theology, but only came about after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.
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dmar198 said:
First, as the Catechism points out, the just war doctrine is a doctrine, not just a theory. Second, I don’t think it’s accurate that the conditions of the just war doctrine allow what you say. CCC 2243 says that a revolt is only justified when there is good hope of success, the resistance won’t cause worse disorders, and all other means of redress have been tried. I don’t think those conditions were met in 1st century Judea. The doctrine is present in the New Testament and in the pre-Nicene Fathers. source Some of Jesus’s disciples served in the military and St. Cornelius the Centurion is one of the earliest saints who served in an army. Jesus taught the right to armed defense in Luke 22:35-38 and St. Paul used that right to defend himself in Acts 23:12-31. The New Testament teaches that the state has the right to use the sword to defend its people against evildoers in Romans 13:4 and the Book of Revelation mentions that Jesus will “wage war justly” in Rev. 19:11. Pre-Nicene Catholics served in the military in the Theban Legion and the Thundering Legion, and there were Catholic soldiers in service in Alexandria including St. Maurice. Moreover, the pre-Nicene Church Fathers taught that some wars are just and that Catholics can serve in the military. source

Nine ecumenical councils have spoken in favor of the Church’s just war doctrine, including the Second Ecumenical Council.

I don’t think the Church can give up the just war doctrine because I think it is clearly a part of Church teaching as handed down to us by Jesus, the Apostles, the ecumenical councils, the Fathers of the Church, and the Doctors of the Church. That doesn’t make the just war doctrine flawed. People will always use good things to justify bad things and that doesn’t mean the good things are flawed. People will use the name of God to justify bad things and that doesn’t mean the name of God is flawed, and people will use the Church’s just war doctrine to justify bad things and that doesn’t mean the just war doctrine is flawed. In fact, an explicit part of the Church’s doctrine is that we reject Mutually Assured Destruction. This appears in the encyclical Pacem in Terris paragraphs 110-111 and in Gaudium et Spes paragraph 81. Therefore, those who use the just war doctrine to justify those things are contradicting themselves.
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**Thanks for this well documented reply.
All that I can say now is that the conditions in 1st century Israel did meet the requirements of the Just War doctrine.
Does anyone dare deny that a revolt led by Jesus would have been successful? **
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
**According to the Just War Theory a 1st century Jewish revolt against the Roman occupation of Israel would have been allowed.
But the Jewish Messiah did not consent to lead such a war against the brutal Romans.
Instead He advised His followers to obey Rome’s orders and to go the extra mile in doing so.

This Theory was not a part of original Christian theology, but only came about after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.
I think that it is deeply flawed. I notice posters using it in an attempt to justify such insanity as the Mutual Assured Destruction doctrine of nuclear weapons.

It is time for Just War Protocols to be either revised or thrown out altogether.**

ncronline.org/news/peace-justice/catholics-press-nuclear-weapons-ban-un-treaty-review-conference
Click to expand...
Not long ago the Pope complained that the Allies didn’t do enough, with heavy aerial bombers, to stop the Holocaust at, specifically, Auschwitz.

If Just War isn’t a thing, then there shouldn’t have been any bombers to stop the holocaust at all.
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
**According to the Just War Theory a 1st century Jewish revolt against the Roman occupation of Israel would have been allowed.
But the Jewish Messiah did not consent to lead such a war against the brutal Romans.
Instead He advised His followers to obey Rome’s orders and to go the extra mile in doing so.

This Theory was not a part of original Christian theology, but only came about after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.
I think that it is deeply flawed. I notice posters using it in an attempt to justify such insanity as the Mutual Assured Destruction doctrine of nuclear weapons.

It is time for Just War Protocols to be either revised or thrown out altogether.**

ncronline.org/news/peace-justice/catholics-press-nuclear-weapons-ban-un-treaty-review-conference
Click to expand...
I take it you have never been in the military.
 
jimcav said:
With the advent of ISIS, I find his timing terrible. Would he say there is no just cause to fight these evil cretins?
Click to expand...
If you applied the just war theory to the second Gulf War, I believe it would give Iraq the right to defend itself, but it would not give America the right to invade Iraq.
 
ARSpade said:
Not long ago the Pope complained that the Allies didn’t do enough, with heavy aerial bombers, to stop the Holocaust at, specifically, Auschwitz.

If Just War isn’t a thing, then there shouldn’t have been any bombers to stop the holocaust at all.
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**I believe that the Jews are YHWH’s chosen people.
Now if our Creator did not Himself stop the holocaust then why were we obligated to violate His Law by killing people in order to do that?
Our only just means of obstructing the holocaust were prayer and the wearing of our own yellow stars.

The idea of “Just War” denies the Power of the Almighty. **
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
if our Creator did not Himself stop the holocaust then why were we obligated to violate His Law by killing people in order to do that?
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I think God Did stop the Holocaust by using the Allies. His law doesn’t forbid war in all cases.
 
Yeoman said:
Oh I hope that it doesn’t result in a new encyclical. We’re have enough new Papla writings to digest right now without adding another one when the current ones have been controversial enough.
Click to expand...
I must admit though, it does sound like an interesting topic for an encyclical. I’d love to read a thoughtful analysis of this issue.
 
Eric_Hyom said:
If you applied the just war theory to the second Gulf War, I believe it would give Iraq the right to defend itself, but it would not give America the right to invade Iraq.
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I think this is highly debateable, especially as to the first conclusion. Saddam Hussein was evil on steroids, responsible for about a million deaths. Defending that regime would have been defending an indisputably evil regime, and if someone like Pope Benedict did in the case of his abandoning Nazi service, one had been able to get out of defending the Saddam regime, he would have been justified in doing so.

Nothing in the doctrine prohibits invasions per se. That’s not part of the doctrine.
 
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