Cardinal Warns Catholic Women Against Marrying Muslim Men

[Steeltemplar]

i envy you growing up in a religiously mixed marriage of jews and catholics and being able to celebrate the major holidays of both religions. i sometimes think that christians should continue to celebrate the high holy days also.

Catholic feast days used to be treated as much more important events - including processions, celebrations, and, well, feasts. That was back when the Catholic faith was practiced as a community by each town and neighborhood.

 

[Ghoti]

I remember reading a Muslim Q&A site years ago: Muslim women are discouraged from marrying non-Muslim men. The reason is that the husband determines the religion/faith of the family, so if for example a Muslim woman married a Christian man, she would be obligated to become a Christian…just as a non-Muslim woman marrying a Muslim man would be obligated to convert to Islam.

 

[JReducation]

Catholic feast days used to be treated as much more important events - including processions, celebrations, and, well, feasts. That was back when the Catholic faith was practiced as a community by each town and neighborhood.

I don’t want to steer this thread away from its original focus. But we have to keep in mind that there have been many changes in society that have affected the way different faiths celebrate their high holy days.

Catholics are not the only ones who have been hurt by the moral decline in society and the upheaval caused by consumerism, rugged individualism, transient societies, the inordinate use of modern technology to destroy life instead of protecting it, the narcisism of today’s generation that is more concerned about its wants rather than human needs and the imaginary re-creation of the image of man in man’s image. All of these things have hurt the faith of our current generation.

I can speak about Jews and Catholics. There was a time when these holy days were family events of special spiritual meaning. Today they are much more secular. Families gather to party for Christmas or Passover. They don’t always worship on those days as they did in the past.

The young are not as interested in the traditions as they are in the celebrations. In other words, they haven’t got a clue where these traditions come from. Most Catholic and Jewish youngsters have no idea why the Passover is important.

Recently, I was teaching a group of Christian and Jewish students about the coming holy days: Easter and Passover. I was explaining to them why they coincide every couple of years, instead of every year. I had to divert my attention to explaining the changes made in the Christian calendar to account for the earth’s orbit around the sun and how the Jewish calendar was not designed the same way. It was impossible to explain a religious concept when you have a group of young people who have no understanding of world history. I for one remember when we were taught about the different changes in the Gregorian and Julian calendars, Copernicus and Galileo etc. The absence of general knowledge and culture often affects the younger generation’s understanding of their faith traditions.

People don’t like to speak about the Passover and Holy Week to students because it’s not PC. What happens is that they don’t appreciate these holy days. The same thing happened when I tried to explain the connection between Christmas and Chanukkah to a group of Christian and Jewish students. Neither group knew anything about either story, because someone decided that this should not be taught in their course in world history. What ever happened to world history? I still insist on teaching the same lessons at our school ever year.

Why should we expect Catholics to understand Passover and connect the dots between Passover and Easter, if they have no idea of world history? What is more interesting is that the entire liturgy of Holy Thursday is filled with the imagery of and references to Passover. It begins in the morning with morning prayer in the Liturgy of the Hours and continues until the Lord’s Supper that night and the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Just as the Jews carried the Ark through the desert we carry the Eucharist out of the Church after the mass.

Just as Moses raised the serpent to heal the sick, we raise the cross on Good Friday. But most people don’t know these stories of ancient times. This is due to the whole idea that this is religion and not PC, rather than culture. From my point of view, you can teach these things as culture. That’s the beginning of understanding.

If you expose the young to the cultures they will connect the dots. This was my experience and that of my brother. My other brother remains Jewish as does my sister. They too were exposed to the same things, but they have had a more difficult time wrapping their minds around it. The Trinity is an obstacle that they struggle with. However, they are very respectful of the Catholics in the family. They attend every first communion, baptism, confirmation and we attend every Bar Mitzvah and Bris. There is a cross over, without having to say that we are the same religion or equal. You must build unity on the things that you have in common. But you have to know what you have in common in order to begin.

Our society has refocussed our priorities and as a result we have lost much of what we once taught to our children, not only among Catholics. Throwing aside the hatred, hostility, discrimination, suspisions and fears is a good thing. Throwing aside history is dumb.

It is time to reform how we teach history, clean of histerics and blame, so as not to divide men. But rich in the content of facts and reasons that gave rise to our beliefs and values. Tradition is not about historical facts alone. It is about an awareness of the value that some things have, because they help explain the present moment. Maybe this is the problem in our dialogue with Islam. Historical events of the past, especially political conflicts between Muslims and others are very much alive in the mind of some exremists. They too have lost sight of the spiritual forces that first attracted the early Muslims to the patriachs and the prophets of Israel.

In reality, these are the central themes of faith, the power of God at work, not the sins that man has committed against man. Those will always be there to remind us that we must be careful of pride.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[7_Sorrows]

I don’t want to steer this thread away from its original focus. But we have to keep in mind that there have been many changes in society that have affected the way different faiths celebrate their high holy days.

Catholics are not the only ones who have been hurt by the moral decline in society and the upheaval caused by consumerism, rugged individualism, transient societies, the inordinate use of modern technology to destroy life instead of protecting it, the narcisism of today’s generation that is more concerned about its wants rather than human needs and the imaginary re-creation of the image of man in man’s image. All of these things have hurt the faith of our current generation.

I can speak about Jews and Catholics. There was a time when these holy days were family events of special spiritual meaning. Today they are much more secular. Families gather to party for Christmas or Passover. They don’t always worship on those days as they did in the past.

The young are not as interested in the traditions as they are in the celebrations. In other words, they haven’t got a clue where these traditions come from. Most Catholic and Jewish youngsters have no idea why the Passover is important.

Recently, I was teaching a group of Christian and Jewish students about the coming holy days: Easter and Passover. I was explaining to them why they coincide every couple of years, instead of every year. I had to divert my attention to explaining the changes made in the Christian calendar to account for the earth’s orbit around the sun and how the Jewish calendar was not designed the same way. It was impossible to explain a religious concept when you have a group of young people who have no understanding of world history. I for one remember when we were taught about the different changes in the Gregorian and Julian calendars, Copernicus and Galileo etc. The absence of general knowledge and culture often affects the younger generation’s understanding of their faith traditions.

People don’t like to speak about the Passover and Holy Week to students because it’s not PC. What happens is that they don’t appreciate these holy days. The same thing happened when I tried to explain the connection between Christmas and Chanukkah to a group of Christian and Jewish students. Neither group knew anything about either story, because someone decided that this should not be taught in their course in world history. What ever happened to world history? I still insist on teaching the same lessons at our school ever year.

Why should we expect Catholics to understand Passover and connect the dots between Passover and Easter, if they have no idea of world history? What is more interesting is that the entire liturgy of Holy Thursday is filled with the imagery of and references to Passover. It begins in the morning with morning prayer in the Liturgy of the Hours and continues until the Lord’s Supper that night and the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Just as the Jews carried the Ark through the desert we carry the Eucharist out of the Church after the mass.

Just as Moses raised the serpent to heal the sick, we raise the cross on Good Friday. But most people don’t know these stories of ancient times. This is due to the whole idea that this is religion and not PC, rather than culture. From my point of view, you can teach these things as culture. That’s the beginning of understanding.

If you expose the young to the cultures they will connect the dots. This was my experience and that of my brother. My other brother remains Jewish as does my sister. They too were exposed to the same things, but they have had a more difficult time wrapping their minds around it. The Trinity is an obstacle that they struggle with. However, they are very respectful of the Catholics in the family. They attend every first communion, baptism, confirmation and we attend every Bar Mitzvah and Bris. There is a cross over, without having to say that we are the same religion or equal. You must build unity on the things that you have in common. But you have to know what you have in common in order to begin.

Our society has refocussed our priorities and as a result we have lost much of what we once taught to our children, not only among Catholics. Throwing aside the hatred, hostility, discrimination, suspisions and fears is a good thing. Throwing aside history is dumb.

It is time to reform how we teach history, clean of histerics and blame, so as not to divide men. But rich in the content of facts and reasons that gave rise to our beliefs and values. Tradition is not about historical facts alone. It is about an awareness of the value that some things have, because they help explain the present moment. Maybe this is the problem in our dialogue with Islam. Historical events of the past, especially political conflicts between Muslims and others are very much alive in the mind of some exremists. They too have lost sight of the spiritual forces that first attracted the early Muslims to the patriachs and the prophets of Israel.

In reality, these are the central themes of faith, the power of God at work, not the sins that man has committed against man. Those will always be there to remind us that we must be careful of pride.

Fraternally,

JR

i took a discovering judaism class about 5 or 6 years ago. i always wanted to learn more about judaism. i attended the services for rosh hashanah and yom kippur and they were beautiful services. i also enjoyed the shabbat services. the jewish people who attend synagogue regularly are very observant and i enjoyed them so much. i think all christians need to learn about judaism and what it is all about and it really gave me a deeper understanding of christianity. i know there are many people who call themselves christians, but they only go to church on christmas or easter and don’t give much thought about going the rest of the year and i think the same can be said for judaism when it comes to the high holy days. they sometimes have to move to larger facilities to accomodate the increased number of people who only come during this time and do not attend the synagogue the rest of the year.

 

[JReducation]

i took a discovering judaism class about 5 or 6 years ago. i always wanted to learn more about judaism. i attended the services for rosh hashanah and yom kippur and they were beautiful services. i also enjoyed the shabbat services. the jewish people who attend synagogue regularly are very observant and i enjoyed them so much. i think all christians need to learn about judaism and what it is all about and it really gave me a deeper understanding of christianity. i know there are many people who call themselves christians, but they only go to church on christmas or easter and don’t give much thought about going the rest of the year and i think the same can be said for judaism when it comes to the high holy days. they sometimes have to move to larger facilities to accomodate the increased number of people who only come during this time and do not attend the synagogue the rest of the year.

This is what I call toxic faith. It is faith that is built on an “addiction”. Just like you light that cigarette after each meal or drink that cup of coffee, you go the church or temple on that day of the year.

Your faith is not completely non-existent, but it rests on a habit, rather than a relationship.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[rpp]

This is what I call toxic faith. It is faith that is built on an “addiction”. Just like you light that cigarette after each meal or drink that cup of coffee, you go the church or temple on that day of the year.

Your faith is not completely non-existent, but it rests on a habit, rather than a relationship.

Fraternally,

JR

A-hem! That is not terribly charitable. Nor fraternal.

 

[JReducation]

A-hem! That is not terribly charitable. Nor fraternal.

Actually, it is not meant to be. In reality, this is a very common term used in Mystical and Spiritual theology. It refers to the practice of faith by habit, rather than by covenant or intimae union of the sould and God.

In today’s modern English translations of mystical and spiritual theology we use the term “toxic”. The person gets stuck on routines and needs help to move to the next level, which is a relationship with God. It is not a reflection on the person’s moral character.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[rpp]

Actually, it is not meant to be. In reality, this is a very common term used in Mystical and Spiritual theology. It refers to the practice of faith by habit, rather than by covenant or intimae union of the sould and God.

In today’s modern English translations of mystical and spiritual theology we use the term “toxic”. The person gets stuck on routines and needs help to move to the next level, which is a relationship with God. It is not a reflection on the person’s moral character.

Fraternally,

JR

Not only have you hijacked this thread, you described my friend 7sorrows as being “toxic” in her faith based on just one post she made… I do not care how flowery or intellectual you try to sound, it is grossly uncharitable and quite anti-fraternal to say such things. You owe her an apology and you should cease hijacking this thread.

 

[JReducation]

Not only have you hijacked this thread, you described my friend 7sorrows as being “toxic” in her faith based on just one post she made… I do not care how flowery or intellectual you try to sound, it is grossly uncharitable and quite anti-fraternal to say such things. You owe her an apology and you should cease hijacking this thread.

I don’t think that my idea came across the way I was trying to. I was trying to agree with 7sorrows. She said that she had found this to be common among people of many faiths. Check out her post.

i took a discovering judaism class about 5 or 6 years ago. i always wanted to learn more about judaism. i attended the services for rosh hashanah and yom kippur and they were beautiful services. i also enjoyed the shabbat services. the jewish people who attend synagogue regularly are very observant and i enjoyed them so much. i think all christians need to learn about judaism and what it is all about and it really gave me a deeper understanding of christianity. i know there are many people who call themselves christians, but they only go to church on christmas or easter and don’t give much thought about going the rest of the year and i think the same can be said for judaism when it comes to the high holy days. they sometimes have to move to larger facilities to accomodate the increased number of people who only come during this time and do not attend the synagogue the rest of the year.

She’s not speaking about herself. She’s speaking about her findings. I’m sharing with her the common label for her findings.

I apologize if I distracted the thread by introducing this comment. That was not my intention. I simply saw something interesting that 7Sorrows posted and replied to it.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[rpp]

I don’t think that my idea came across the way I was trying to. I was trying to agree with 7sorrows. She said that she had found this to be common among people of many faiths. Check out her post.

She’s not speaking about herself. She’s speaking about her findings. I’m sharing with her the common label for her findings.

I apologize if I distracted the thread by introducing this comment. That was not my intention. I simply saw something interesting that 7Sorrows posted and replied to it.

Fraternally,

JR

Ah, okay. My misreading.

Meanwhile, back to the issue of the Portuguese bishop warning against marrying Muslims.

 

[Franze]

i am so sad to hear this. i studied in spain in 1972-1973 and lived with a Spanish family in Madrid. Franco was still in power, so everything was different then. i loved spain. i travelled all over during my studies there. southern spain is so beautiful. the architecture, which had a strong islamic influence was beautiful. granada, sevilla, cordoba were 3 of my favorite cities. it saddens me to hear how spain has changed. i understand the muslims want the cathedral that was once a mosque to be returned to them. i don’t remember which city in southern spain it was in.
spain has such a rich history and the muslims did occupy southern spain for many hundred of years.
is the Catholic Church in Spain losing its influence?

Yes it is, the current Spain is very different from this country, I am not very optimistic about the future.
In addition the Catholic Chuch has lazy and weak pastors, not morally but for omision, they are very near to the PP, Popular Party, The Aznar´s Party and it has been a very bad influence for the Church. The PSOE, Zapatero´s Party that has ruled Spain 19 of the last 27 years it has been a nightmare for the country but they have an idelogy, the PP not.
Sad, my country.

 

[irishpatrick]

Interesting:

**In Portugal the dogma of the faith will always be preserved…" The words of the Blessed Virgin Mary prior to revealing the Third Secret of Fatima. **

This seems to say that the faith will NOT be preserved in all other places…quite interesting that a Bishop from the very place of preservation would come out with this statement.

 

[JReducation]

I’m just going to chime in here with some ideas. Don’t take them to the bank. It’s been a long time since I had formal studies in Muslim spirituality, since the 1980s. The political arena and the ethnic differences among the Muslims have certainly tainted their spirituality and caused some major divisions among them.

But one idea that I have and can see where the bishop is coming from has to do with this very issue. There is still a core group of Muslims who have a deeper spiritual life. But the younger generation have distorted their own spirituality by allowing their anger toward the West influence their behavior and the way that they run their families and their countries.

What was once a spirituality that pointed toward Allah (God) as the supreme Good has now become a campaign where Allah is the great justification for anger, mistrust, violence and oppression, even of their own people. This is very sad.

If we look back at history, Mohammad’s wife was a very influential person in his life and mission. One would never know it looking at some of the Muslim sects today. The idea was that men were to protect their wives from the evils of the world and provide for their children. In fact that’s how the burka came into existence. It was a way of protecting women from impure eyes or lustful men. All of a sudden, the woman is the sinner if she shows her face and a man looks at her with an impure thought. This is completely opposite of the original idea. The innocence of women and their purity was held in high esteem. Now, it is the power of men over women that is promoted.

In many respects, much of the way that Muslim men and women related to each other in their spiritual lives was very similar to that which Jews and Christians applied in their own societies. I for one believe that when one adult takes on the care of another adult, without a communion of minds, zelotry is going to develop. It’s almost a chronic fear and people live in a state of hyper-vigilance. When this happens, the spiritual values are lost and are replaced by man over compensating to the point that he tries to do God’s job.

This is what makes the dialogue between Muslims and the Jewish and Christian community so very difficult. This is complicated when Jews and Christians also begin to do God’s job, instead of letting God protect us and lead us, we decide to make our own rules.

Then there is the case in other Christian and Jewish societies where there is just plain indifference. Everyone realizes that there are social and moral obligations, but few people want to step up to the plate.

In either case, whether you abdicate your spiritual responsibilities or you take over God’s job, you’re in trouble.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[JReducation]

Interesting:

**In Portugal the dogma of the faith will always be preserved…" The words of the Blessed Virgin Mary prior to revealing the Third Secret of Fatima. **

This seems to say that the faith will NOT be preserved in all other places…quite interesting that a Bishop from the very place of preservation would come out with this statement.

We have to be careful here when quoting what Mary said at Fatima. The Church has never said that this is what it means.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[7_Sorrows]

This is what I call toxic faith. It is faith that is built on an “addiction”. Just like you light that cigarette after each meal or drink that cup of coffee, you go the church or temple on that day of the year.

Your faith is not completely non-existent, but it rests on a habit, rather than a relationship.

Fraternally,

JR

are you speaking of the christians who only go to church on easter and christmas and the jewish people who only go for the high holy day services or me personally? i don’t know if i would call it toxic faith, but they obviously have no real commitment to their faith or understand what it is to be christian, catholic or jewish. as for me, i attend mass every week.

 

[JReducation]

are you speaking of the christians who only go to church on easter and christmas and the jewish people who only go for the high holy day services or me personally? i don’t know if i would call it toxic faith, but they obviously have no real commitment to their faith or understand what it is to be christian, catholic or jewish. as for me, i attend mass every week.

NO NO NO . . . not you!

I’m talking about people who remember God only as a habit. It’s like you say, “no real commitment”. It’s one of those situations where these folks do something because that’s the way they’ve always done it.

I’m thinking about the bishop’s statement. Some of these extreme groups are toxic. Their religion is all about their rules, not about commitment. Know what I mean?

JR

 

[redrosetea]

Some Muslims are certainly fine people…I have a friend who was in danger of loosing his leg as a child…His Muslim teacher came to the hospital and prayed for him

The Koran respects Mary, and Jesus…but Sharia rule is another matter. It is quite fierce and really not always woman friendly…There is a big clash of cultures in the daily life of the East and the West…Some of the things we export has turned Muslims agaisnt us…You can’t blame them for trying to keep smut and decadent values out of their country

But just like the experience of my daughters classmates, sister, when you try to live as a westerner in that part of the world you are up against all sorts of prejudices toward women and some against Christians…The Bishop in my opinion, was sort of telling women they might end up in a lot of trouble married to a Muslim…I am not sure a Muslim woman that married a Christian would have the same type of problems…I suspect she might feel liberated

 

[7_Sorrows]

NO NO NO . . . not you!

I’m talking about people who remember God only as a habit. It’s like you say, “no real commitment”. It’s one of those situations where these folks do something because that’s the way they’ve always done it.

I’m thinking about the bishop’s statement. Some of these extreme groups are toxic. Their religion is all about their rules, not about commitment. Know what I mean?

JR

okay. at first i wasn’t sure, but after i reread it, i thought that is what you were referring to.
and as for the people who only attend church on Christmas and Easter i wonder if they know what a church is actually for or what happens the rest of the church year!!

i think that is how some people who don’t know that much about being christian or Catholic, would not realize how serious it would be to marry a Muslim man.

 

[JReducation]

okay. at first i wasn’t sure, but after i reread it, i thought that is what you were referring to.
and as for the people who only attend church on Christmas and Easter i wonder if they know what a church is actually for or what happens the rest of the church year!!

i think that is how some people who don’t know that much about being christian or Catholic, would not realize how serious it would be to marry a Muslim man.

The same thing has happened to Muslims as has happened to Christians and Jews. Faith is not about a relationship with God, but about routines and rules. When this happens, this is not faith but toxic religion. It poisons the mind in this sense. Anyone who does not follow the rules is wrong and I’m right. That’s when we begin to oppress others.

I’m not sure if this is coming out as clearly as I would like to say it. I hope so.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[7_Sorrows]

The same thing has happened to Muslims as has happened to Christians and Jews. Faith is not about a relationship with God, but about routines and rules. When this happens, this is not faith but toxic religion. It poisons the mind in this sense. Anyone who does not follow the rules is wrong and I’m right. That’s when we begin to oppress others.

I’m not sure if this is coming out as clearly as I would like to say it. I hope so.

Fraternally,

JR

i think i understand the point you are making. we become so concerned about proper procedure that we almost leave God out of the scenario and the most important aspect we should be concerned with is our relationship with God. hopefully, i am close to the point you are trying to make. from what i understand, most muslims feel that their faith is what the rest of the world should follow.