Cardinal Wuerl speaks on conscience, Church teaching, and Amoris Laetitia

[gilliam]

Cardinal Wuerl speaks on conscience, Church teaching, and Amoris Laetitia – Addressing a group of seminarians, … bit.ly/2k4a78y

 

[RCinMT]

"But the actual judgment of conscience and therefore the culpability before God for a specific action belongs to the individual.”

This coincides nicely with the other discussions ongoing about conscience. It backs up the point that ultimately the Catholic Church has nothing to offer.

 

[_Abyssinia]

This coincides nicely with the other discussions ongoing about conscience. It backs up the point that ultimately the Catholic Church has nothing to offer.

What do you mean?

 

[RCinMT]

What do you mean?

Several comments by the pope, certain members of the catholic hierarchy and people here who seem to know theology indicate that if conscience were to lead one to a place that is in dispute with catholic teaching, one should follow the conscience because it is there that God has inscribed His laws.

For example, I ha e been told and now believe that “grey areas” like birth control are subject to inner dialogue. There’s no possible theological or dogmatic grounds on which one can disagree with the use of birth control but if one just feels that children are not wanted or that one is just not ready and the conscience is certain than BC can be used and communion received in good standing. So…what’s the point of doctrine or rules if we all innately know what is right for us? The Church has no authority in other words.

 

[Milestone]

Several comments by the pope, certain members of the catholic hierarchy and people here who seem to know theology indicate that if conscience were to lead one to a place that is in dispute with catholic teaching, one should follow the conscience because it is there that God has inscribed His laws.

For example, I ha e been told and now believe that “grey areas” like birth control are subject to inner dialogue. There’s no possible theological or dogmatic grounds on which one can disagree with the use of birth control but if one just feels that children are not wanted or that one is just not ready and the conscience is certain than BC can be used and communion received in good standing. So…what’s the point of doctrine or rules if we all innately know what is right for us? The Church has no authority in other words.

You’re ignoring the theologians and members of the Catholic hierarchy who are opposed to such an interpretation of doctrine. This issue hasn’t been settled definitively. We should wait and see where this goes before coming to such drastic conclusions. And the pope isn’t saying that conscience should be the final arbiter of all our moral decisions. He’s saying that a well formed conscience, with the help of an orthodox pastor, should be able to discern whether or not he or she is culpable for his or her objectively grave sin. Is he right? I don’t know. I’m going to follow my own advice and wait and see where this leads the Church.

 

[jeannetherese]

This coincides nicely with the other discussions ongoing about conscience. It backs up the point that ultimately the Catholic Church has nothing to offer.

Hi RC,
I just read the longer article, source of the link in the O.P. which may be found here.
stcloudvisitor.org/2017/01/24/wuerl-amoris-laetitia-accompanying-couples-amid-lifes-challenges/

As I think of the section of Cardinal Wuerl’s message that you quoted:

"But the actual judgment of conscience and therefore the culpability before God for a specific action belongs to the individual.”

I wonder if it might have be interpreted differently to suggest that each of us is accountable to God for our actions as we act upon our consciences? I’m reading culpability as responsibility/fault -kind of a You get it wrong-you’re gonna pay- message.

Of course, as I follow the arguments surrounding A.L., differing interpretations seem to be a huge part of the confusion and disagreements being shared.
The linked article does cite Cardinal Wuerl as saying: "“When we begin our reflections on the pastoral implications of Amoris Laetitia, we need to start with the understanding that none of the teaching of the Church has been changed,” he said. “This includes the teaching on the indissolubility of marriage, the directives you find in the Code of Canon Law, and also the role of individual conscience in the determination of personal culpability.”

I did appreciate the emphasis Cardinal Wuerl placed on beefing up catechesis:

“The Holy Father calls for a family apostolate that offers more adequate catechesis and formation, not only of engaged and married couples and their children, but also priests, deacons, seminarians, consecrated religious, catechists, teachers, social workers, medical professionals and other pastoral workers,” the cardinal said.

I hope that a renewed emphasis upon catechesis will prove especially helpful in the years to come.
May God bless you and all who visit our thread.
Amen.
jt

 

[JPUSC]

This coincides nicely with the other discussions ongoing about conscience. It backs up the point that ultimately the Catholic Church has nothing to offer.

Good to know.

 

[pnewton]

Several comments by the pope, certain members of the catholic hierarchy and people here who seem to know theology indicate that if conscience were to lead one to a place that is in dispute with catholic teaching, one should follow the conscience because it is there that God has inscribed His laws. So…what’s the point of doctrine or rules if we all innately know what is right for us? The Church has no authority in other words.

Are you referring to there being no Church authority for those who follow their conscience in rejecting, say the Church teaching on the Catholic Church being the one true church (Protestants), or those today that are rejecting the teaching of the Pope and the Catholic hierarchy in Amoris Laetitia? I ask because the answer is the same on both. Following one’s conscience does not affect the teaching authority of the Church on iota. If one is a Catholic, then there remains the responsibility to remain a student of Church doctrine, even if on disagrees, attempting to better understand the mind of the Church.

 

[pnewton]

Cardinal Wuerl speaks on conscience, Church teaching, and Amoris Laetitia – Addressing a group of seminarians, … bit.ly/2k4a78y

Good article by the way.

 

[RCinMT]

Are you referring to there being no Church authority for those who follow their conscience in rejecting, say the Church teaching on the Catholic Church being the one true church (Protestants), or those today that are rejecting the teaching of the Pope and the Catholic hierarchy in Amoris Laetitia? I ask because the answer is the same on both. Following one’s conscience does not affect the teaching authority of the Church on iota. If one is a Catholic, then there remains the responsibility to remain a student of Church doctrine, even if on disagrees, attempting to better understand the mind of the Church.

Teaching authority would be a truth claim to which one is free to assent or from which one is free to dissent according to conscience. Regarding a duty to remain a student, why? Conscience is written on the soul by God and is not, as described elsewhere, a “nurture” issue. That being the case, the conscience cannot be changed, it’s what God has deemed for each us, so why would somebody waste time with the Church? Our truth’s our irrevocably written on our hearts.

 

[JPUSC]

The Church is “called to form consciences, not to replace them”. This is the key phrase for understanding Pope Francis’ post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation on the family.

aleteia.org/2016/06/29/we-have-been-called-to-form-consciences-not-to-replace-them

“It can no longer simply be said that all those in any irregular situations are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace,” he wrote. Even those in an “objective situation of sin” can be in a state of grace, and can even be more pleasing to God by trying to improve, he said.

cjonline.com/news/2016-04-08/pope-francis-insists-conscience-not-rules-must-guide-faithful

“You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart,” Francis wrote. “The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience. Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

oregonlive.com/articles/17701745/pope_francis_offers_hope_to_fa.amp?

Pope Francis has caused controversy by appearing to suggest that a Lutheran wife of a Catholic husband could receive holy Communion based on the fact that she is baptized and in accordance with her conscience.

During a question and answer session at an evening prayer service on Sunday in Rome’s Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Pope urged the Lutheran woman…to “talk to the Lord” about receiving holy Communion “and then go forward”, but added that he "wouldn’t ever dare to allow this, because it’s not my competence. One baptism, one Lord, one faith. Talk to the Lord and then go forward. I don’t dare to say anything more.”

ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-tells-lutheran-to-talk-to-the-lord-about-receiving-eucharist

 

[pnewton]

Teaching authority would be a truth claim to which one is free to assent or from which one is free to dissent according to conscience. Regarding a duty to remain a student, why? .

Because choosing ignorance is beneath our dignity of humans. I have never heard anyone suggest ignorance as a virtue.

There are people who dissent from the teaching authority of the Church. They are non-Catholics. The papacy and the authority that extends from it is the one thing that makes the Catholic Church unique, and the one true Church.

So, we are talking about Catholics, which is why I said, "if one is a Catholic."As ot the rest of humanity, they will choose disregard any authority of the Catholic Church. However, remembering the thread, Cardinal Wuerl was speaking within the context of Catholicism. We always need to bear the general context in mind.

 

[pnewton]

I remember a book (Mark Shea?) entitled By What Authority? In it he makes the case of authority being the first question one must settle to understand Christianity.

One more point, if you read what Cardinal Wuerl actually said, he made it clear the need for pastoral accompaniment, that is the presentation of Church doctrine, as a condition of a conscientious decision. Once again, context is critical.

 

[RCinMT]

]

“You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart,” Francis wrote. “The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience. Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

Case settled by the pope, Francis. Disobeying the catholic church is only a sin if it coincides with disobeying your conscience. The stance of the catholic church is then the stance of relativism, that there is no such thing as a universal truth (remember what truth means) but only “your truth” and “my truth”.

 

[RCinMT]

Because choosing ignorance is beneath our dignity of humans. I have never heard anyone suggest ignorance as a virtue.

There are people who dissent from the teaching authority of the Church. They are non-Catholics. The papacy and the authority that extends from it is the one thing that makes the Catholic Church unique, and the one true Church.

So, we are talking about Catholics, which is why I said, "if one is a Catholic."As ot the rest of humanity, they will choose disregard any authority of the Catholic Church. However, remembering the thread, Cardinal Wuerl was speaking within the context of Catholicism. We always need to bear the general context in mind.

And of the idea that conscience is God’s law irrevocably written into each human and therefore there’s no use in learning or forming conscience because it’s formed already?

 

[pnewton]

Case settled by the pope, Francis. Disobeying the catholic church is only a sin if it coincides with disobeying your conscience. The stance of the catholic church is then the stance of relativism, that there is no such thing as a universal truth (remember what truth means) but only “your truth” and “my truth”.

You are making stuff up now. Pope Francis said no such thing.

 

[Memaw]

Several comments by the pope, certain members of the catholic hierarchy and people here who seem to know theology indicate that if conscience were to lead one to a place that is in dispute with catholic teaching, one should follow the conscience because it is there that God has inscribed His laws.

For example, I ha e been told and now believe that “grey areas” like birth control are subject to inner dialogue. There’s no possible theological or dogmatic grounds on which one can disagree with the use of birth control but if one just feels that children are not wanted or that one is just not ready and the conscience is certain than BC can be used and communion received in good standing. So…what’s the point of doctrine or rules if we all innately know what is right for us? The Church has no authority in other words.

A Catholic MUST have a rightly informed conscience in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church and it is a Catholics obligation to do so. One that truly is ignorant of something may be a different matter, but must learn the truth as soon as one finds out its wrong. That is why Christ founded HIS Church so to guide us in HIS TRUTHS!! We can’t just do as we please because we may not want to agree with Christ’s Church. God Bless, Memaw

 

[pnewton]

And of the idea that conscience is God’s law irrevocably written into each human and therefore there’s no use in learning or forming conscience because it’s formed already?

My opinion is that this idea is smoke from a burning straw man. It puts two and two together and comes up with potato.

 

[Ender]

This coincides nicely with the other discussions ongoing about conscience. It backs up the point that ultimately the Catholic Church has nothing to offer.

You have read more into this comment than is actually there. This statement is absolutely true:*"But the actual judgment of conscience and therefore the culpability before God for a specific action belongs to the individual.”
*What that doesn’t say, and what you appear to have assumed, is that a person is not culpable for the actions his conscience leads him to commit, but the conscience doesn’t excuse our acts, it makes us responsible for them.1781 Conscience enables one to assume responsibility for the acts performed.
Ender

 

[JPUSC]

My opinion is that this idea is smoke from a burning straw man. It puts two and two together and comes up with potato.

“Theology is no #Mathematics. 2 + 2 in #Theology can make 5. Because it has to do with #God and real #life of #people…”

Jesuit papal confidant and director of La Civiltà Cattolica, Fr. Antonio Spadaro S.J., who is considered to be “one of the Jesuits closest to Pope Francis.”

catholicworldreport.com/Blog/5330/close_papal_confidant_2__2_in_theology_can_make_5.aspx