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Brendan
Guest
My apologies. I though your comment was in reference to the teachings of Familaris Consortio 84.
Cardinal Wuerl: The Catholic Church is moving from legalism to mercy
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KSU
Guest
well actually the changes that happened here at Port Arthur like the separation on the boy convicts from the men and the rehabilitation initiatives based on the phisophy of mans potential and worth, were done under the eye of the Church of England. This was an English settlement and the Catholics influence on culture came later.
Sure, but from where did the Church of England get its body of teaching regarding human dignity, etc. if not from the Roman Catholic Church? Henry et al. didn’t abandon all Catholic teaching.
Other humane developments like the abolition of capital punishment which began here in the early 1900s we3re philosophical developments that were affirmed as good by the catholic church but were not initiated by her.
**Again, those philosophical developments were based on Catholic teaching.
Watch out for those Tasmanian Devils.**
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LongingSoul
Guest
I’ve actually got an interesting catholic related story and photo that I’ll post in the back fence section when I get home. Down here in Tassie the phone and internet reception is so patchy and unreliable for anything much because it’s intolerably mountainy and the residents really dont seem to care about such modern ways!
Send us all a postcard
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KSU
Guest
No engaged Catholic has any right to deny what was attempted at the Synod. Catholic websites have been writing about it years before, during and after the Synod. Here is just one of many articles:
“We are not just a subsidiary of Rome,” Cardinal Marx said. “Each episcopal conference is responsible for the pastoral care in their culture and has to proclaim the Gospel in its own unique way. We cannot wait until a synod states something, as we have to carry out marriage and family ministry here.”
Cardinal Marx and the majority of German bishops favor German Cardinal Walter Kasper’s proposal to allow some divorced-and-civilly-remarried Catholics to receive Communion after a period of penance. In April, they are also expected to pass new labor regulations that will permit remarried divorcees and homosexual couples to work in the country’s many Church-run institutions.
In a Jan. 22 interview with the Jesuit-run America magazine, Cardinal Marx said the Church “must look for ways” for people to receive the Eucharist. “It is not about finding ways to keep them out! We must find ways to welcome them”
But senior Church figures in other countries have warned about discrepancies between pastoral practice and doctrine. Guinean Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, recently stated that detaching Church teaching from pastoral practice — which critics say the Kasper proposal would do — is a form of “heresy.”
The idea of placing the magisterium “in a nice box by detaching it from pastoral practice — which could evolve according to the circumstances, fads and passions — is a form of heresy, a dangerous schizophrenic pathology,” Cardinal Sarah said.
He added that the African Church “will strongly oppose any rebellion against the teaching of Jesus and the magisterium.”…
In an interview last week with a local German newspaper, Bishop Koch also called for changes in the way the Church treats homosexual people, saying that to “portray homosexuality as a sin is hurtful.”
ncregister.com/daily-news/german-bishops-we-are-not-just-a-subsidiary-of-rome
“We are not just a subsidiary of Rome,” Cardinal Marx said. “Each episcopal conference is responsible for the pastoral care in their culture and has to proclaim the Gospel in its own unique way. We cannot wait until a synod states something, as we have to carry out marriage and family ministry here.”
Cardinal Marx and the majority of German bishops favor German Cardinal Walter Kasper’s proposal to allow some divorced-and-civilly-remarried Catholics to receive Communion after a period of penance. In April, they are also expected to pass new labor regulations that will permit remarried divorcees and homosexual couples to work in the country’s many Church-run institutions.
In a Jan. 22 interview with the Jesuit-run America magazine, Cardinal Marx said the Church “must look for ways” for people to receive the Eucharist. “It is not about finding ways to keep them out! We must find ways to welcome them”
But senior Church figures in other countries have warned about discrepancies between pastoral practice and doctrine. Guinean Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, recently stated that detaching Church teaching from pastoral practice — which critics say the Kasper proposal would do — is a form of “heresy.”
The idea of placing the magisterium “in a nice box by detaching it from pastoral practice — which could evolve according to the circumstances, fads and passions — is a form of heresy, a dangerous schizophrenic pathology,” Cardinal Sarah said.
He added that the African Church “will strongly oppose any rebellion against the teaching of Jesus and the magisterium.”…
In an interview last week with a local German newspaper, Bishop Koch also called for changes in the way the Church treats homosexual people, saying that to “portray homosexuality as a sin is hurtful.”
ncregister.com/daily-news/german-bishops-we-are-not-just-a-subsidiary-of-rome
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sarah_j
Guest
There seems to be much confusion about the difference between doctrine/discipline
and confusion about the “development” of doctrine.
This article gives a clear explanation of why the Church cannot change its
teaching on Communion for the divorced and remarried :
Would the proposal actually require a change in Church teaching?
Yes. If the teaching on the indissolubility of marriage were not changed, a change would be required in the Church’s teaching in at least one of the following three areas:
If having sexual relations in a second, civil marriage is adulterous, then such relations are gravely sinful. If they are gravely sinful, they need to be repented of in order to be absolved in confession so that one can return to a state of grace. If they are not repented of, then one committing them is not in a state of grace and so cannot receive Communion.
The Kasper proposal thus requires the belief that sexual relations in a second, civil marriage are not gravely sinful, that one does not have to repent of grave sin to be absolved, that one does not need to be in a state of grace to receive Communion, or some combination of these.
**So this isn’t merely a matter of Church discipline or pastoral practice but one of doctrine?
**
Yes. Even if the indissolubility of marriage is upheld, a change in Church doctrine would be required on one or more points.
**Advocates of the proposal sometimes argue that it is possible for doctrine to develop. Could it develop on these points?
**
Doctrinal development involves sharpening the Church’s understanding of particular points.
It is difficult to see how the Church’s understanding of the indissolubility of marriage, the nature and gravity of adultery, the need for repentance in confession, or the need for the state of grace for Communion could develop in a way that would allow the Kasper proposal.
The issues involved are not new or unexplored. They have been with the Church since the very beginning and have been settled parts of the magisterium’s teaching.
**Would the proposal help guide people in these situations toward a full acceptance of the Church’s teaching in their lives?
**
Human nature suggests the opposite: Giving people absolution and Communion without repentance would remove key incentives for repentance and would confirm people in a sinful course of behavior.
read more - catholic.com/documents/divorce-remarriage-communion-a-guide-to-what-is-happening-and-how-you-can-help
and confusion about the “development” of doctrine.
This article gives a clear explanation of why the Church cannot change its
teaching on Communion for the divorced and remarried :
Would the proposal actually require a change in Church teaching?
Yes. If the teaching on the indissolubility of marriage were not changed, a change would be required in the Church’s teaching in at least one of the following three areas:
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Code:
The gravely sinful nature of sexual relations with someone that you are not married to -
Code:
The need to repent of one’s sins, including “the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future,” to be validly absolved in confession -
Code:
The need to be in a state of grace to receive Communion
If having sexual relations in a second, civil marriage is adulterous, then such relations are gravely sinful. If they are gravely sinful, they need to be repented of in order to be absolved in confession so that one can return to a state of grace. If they are not repented of, then one committing them is not in a state of grace and so cannot receive Communion.
The Kasper proposal thus requires the belief that sexual relations in a second, civil marriage are not gravely sinful, that one does not have to repent of grave sin to be absolved, that one does not need to be in a state of grace to receive Communion, or some combination of these.
**So this isn’t merely a matter of Church discipline or pastoral practice but one of doctrine?
**
Yes. Even if the indissolubility of marriage is upheld, a change in Church doctrine would be required on one or more points.
**Advocates of the proposal sometimes argue that it is possible for doctrine to develop. Could it develop on these points?
**
Doctrinal development involves sharpening the Church’s understanding of particular points.
It is difficult to see how the Church’s understanding of the indissolubility of marriage, the nature and gravity of adultery, the need for repentance in confession, or the need for the state of grace for Communion could develop in a way that would allow the Kasper proposal.
The issues involved are not new or unexplored. They have been with the Church since the very beginning and have been settled parts of the magisterium’s teaching.
**Would the proposal help guide people in these situations toward a full acceptance of the Church’s teaching in their lives?
**
Human nature suggests the opposite: Giving people absolution and Communion without repentance would remove key incentives for repentance and would confirm people in a sinful course of behavior.
read more - catholic.com/documents/divorce-remarriage-communion-a-guide-to-what-is-happening-and-how-you-can-help
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PaulineMargaret
Guest
I don’t know about all that but I do know this verse from John’s gospel, John 16 verses 12-14
Jesus said:
12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes,
He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative,
but whatever He hears, He will speak;
and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.…
Bolding and underlining mine to emphasize the appropriate message from Jesus to the apostles before He ascended.*
Jesus said:
12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes,
He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative,
but whatever He hears, He will speak;
and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.…
Bolding and underlining mine to emphasize the appropriate message from Jesus to the apostles before He ascended.*
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KSU
Guest
The Holy Spirit teaches us that He did come, as promised, and that His Revelation of new truth ended with the death of the last Apostle. Jesus’s teaching on adultery can not be changed by some “more correct teaching of the Holy Spirit.”
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Thomas_White
Guest
Dei Verbum, the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, teaches that “as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fullness in her”. Divine revelation continues until the end of time: “For there is a growth in the understanding and the realities of the words which have been handed down” (Dei Verbum, 8).
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LongingSoul
Guest
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit only stayed until the last apostle died… or that He no longer guides the church as per Jesus words but is some benign myth?
To deny the Holy Spirit is very serious.
There is much for us to understand about Gods perspective and Gods will and most especilly His mercy. What would be the point of promoting St Faustinas Divine Mercy prophecies if nothing was meant to change?
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JimG
Guest
If I recall correctly, it is Catholic teaching that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. Understanding can grow, but understanding is not divine revelation.
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Thomas_White
Guest
“…the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fullness in her” (Dei Verbum, 8.)
In the book “God and the World”, then-Cardinal Ratzinger is quoted as saying that to each generation a bit more of revelation is revealed. I do not know what is meant by “public revelation”. Dei Verbum, however, says what it says. The young Fr. Ratzinger is said to have been a primary influence on Dei Verbum during the Second Varican Council.
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Thomas_White
Guest
This link provides helpful information about the theologan then-Fr. Joseph Ratzinger and his influence on Dei Verbum.
vitamutaturnontollitur.blogspot.com/2014/09/ratzinger-and-theology-of-revelation.html?view=classic
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JimG
Guest
From the link:
“The means by which the supreme Truth is communicated comes, firstly, through Scripture, which is the standard par excellence of Christian life. Secondly, the Truth manifested in Scripture is handed from generation to generation, in means appropriate to each era, through the continuous ministry of the Church. This “handing on” is Tradition (from Latin tradire, “to hand over”). God is operative through historical processes in each.”
So: Scripture and Tradition. This does not seem all that radical to me.
Throughout history the Church has recognized various “private revelations,” such as a Fatima and Lourdes, but always with the proviso that private revelation is not binding on the faithful.
And unlike the Mormons, who do believe in continuing revelation through their prophets, I am not aware that the Church has invested theologians or bishops with the gift of recognition of new revelation. In fact, it normally would evaluate claims of private or new revelation against Scripture and Tradition–that which has been handed down. And even if it approved a private revelation as valid, it would not be binding on the faithful.
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LongingSoul
Guest
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Corki
Guest
However, a good portion of canon law is precisely focused on “how to realistically apply that same Gospel message in a more loving and merciful way”. There is not, and never should be, a contradiction between Christian mercy and canon law.
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JimG
Guest
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LongingSoul
Guest
Sodomy is a fairly cut and dried disorder and sin… but adultery is already a different thing in different states of faith. If a catholic marries, divorces and remarries they are adulerers. If a non catholic marries, divorces and remarries they aren’t. The degree of culpability according to faith, by default releases a non catholic from the catagory.
The question being floated now is that considering the cultural secularisation of many catholics, how do we account for that situation in addressing the late conversion born catholics?
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Ender
Guest
Development can lead to a change in doctrine, but it cannot lead to the reversal of doctrine. The doctrines involved in this topic may indeed develop, but they can never change to the extent that they allow in the future what they disallow now.
Ender
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Thomas_White
Guest
It is the difference between seeing doctrine and teaching as static and fixed as opposed to revelation as a continuing process. Saint Pope John Paul II (as the article notes) and of course Pope Benedict XVI understood revelation in this way, and it would seem Pope Francis does as well. That this teaching has not been a focus is the source of great confusion, and I would say it is likely why much that has been said of late by Pope Francis and theologians such as Cardinal Casper has seemed incomprehensible to some.
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