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ratio1
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Have a nice day. 
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DustThouArt
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Progressivism is a demonic disorder and it destroys everything it infects. God Bless Cardinal Zen! Viva Christo Rey!
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ratio1
Guest
Long live the Vatican! Rebuke people who “confuses” the issues as per the Vatican statement issued.
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DustThouArt
Guest
You have quoted a secular source which, although using the term “The Vatican”, does not name a Cardinal or Curial official as having leveled the rebuke. Then the article goes on to disparage +Cardinal Zen.
It is unfortunate that the Church is moving into the area of personal assault and ad hominum attacks of those who do not march in lock step with the current manifestations of the “new Paradigm”.
It is unfortunate that the Church is moving into the area of personal assault and ad hominum attacks of those who do not march in lock step with the current manifestations of the “new Paradigm”.
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ratio1
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Easy.
This is Cardinal Zen own blog.
http://oldyosef.hkdavc.com/
He defends this “rebuke” in it. If he is defending he must have be “attacked”. Anyway I’m not sure why I’m even trying to prove this. Any reasonable person knows what the Vatican said.
This is Cardinal Zen own blog.
http://oldyosef.hkdavc.com/
He defends this “rebuke” in it. If he is defending he must have be “attacked”. Anyway I’m not sure why I’m even trying to prove this. Any reasonable person knows what the Vatican said.
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ratio1
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Cardinal Zen’s own words below: (you can see it on his blog)
My “over-all” answer to questions put to me by friends in the media, after the Press release by the Holy See (or the Secretariate of State?).
The Press release includes 3 statements:
The Pope knows what “they” are doing.
The Pope approves what they are doing.
My article causes confusion and controversy.
A.
(1) I did not say that the Pope doesn’t know what they are doing. But, as a matter of fact, the Pope did tell Archbishop Savio “why that Commission has not conferred with me?”
(2) I did mean that there is difference between what they are doing and the mind of the Holy Father. Now the Declaration denies that. That means they accuse me to be a liar.
I accuse them of doing bad things (wrong things?) but not to be liars. Now people have to make up their mind: who, I or they, must be liar.
B.
If the point (2) is what they are actually most interested in, then they are making the Holy Father responsible for all their evil doings, which is precisely what I tried to prevent.
C.
I was well aware that my article would cause controversy, but my hope is that the controversy may bring to a good conclusion: an agreement that the things “they” are doing are bad (wrong ?), and consequently they must change direction.
My “over-all” answer to questions put to me by friends in the media, after the Press release by the Holy See (or the Secretariate of State?).
The Press release includes 3 statements:
The Pope knows what “they” are doing.
The Pope approves what they are doing.
My article causes confusion and controversy.
A.
(1) I did not say that the Pope doesn’t know what they are doing. But, as a matter of fact, the Pope did tell Archbishop Savio “why that Commission has not conferred with me?”
(2) I did mean that there is difference between what they are doing and the mind of the Holy Father. Now the Declaration denies that. That means they accuse me to be a liar.
I accuse them of doing bad things (wrong things?) but not to be liars. Now people have to make up their mind: who, I or they, must be liar.
B.
If the point (2) is what they are actually most interested in, then they are making the Holy Father responsible for all their evil doings, which is precisely what I tried to prevent.
C.
I was well aware that my article would cause controversy, but my hope is that the controversy may bring to a good conclusion: an agreement that the things “they” are doing are bad (wrong ?), and consequently they must change direction.
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ratio1
Guest
Is Cardinal Zen suggesting that he knows the mind of the Holy Father?I did mean that there is difference between what they are doing and the mind of the Holy Father.
Wow. No need to ask Pope Francis himself, just ask Cardinal Zen.
Even if it is true that on this issue he truly knows the mind of the Holy Father, Pope Francis hasn’t defended him otherwise.
And this is what I find most baffling.
Of course Catholics in China are under authoritarian pressure, only naive people would believe it’s all ok in China. Even what Bishop Sorondo says about “China is best at implementing Catholic social doctrine”, whilst I applaud that, only someone truly naive would believe that 100%.
My point is, for the last 60 years, Vatican has not establish formal relations with China, why? obviously there are a lot of sticking points. The FACT that the Vatican is prepared to do a deal with China means to me that some of these hurdles must have been worked out, and that the Vatican has worked out that the positives outweigh the ngeatives. The Vatican, IMO, is not stupid. (some of you may think so). Would it really truly kowtow to communist party in China? I don’t think so. There must be some diplomatic secrets/deals or a host of other factors which the public doesn’t know. No one is suggesting there are no negatives. and I bet you what Bishop Sorondo said was for the communist party in China to hear, not for us. it’s just a diplomatic ploy.
As per Cardinal Zen, I’m not against him having opinions of his own. And I congratulate him in going to Rome to voice his concerns to the Pope. What I find disappointing is that he then goes to the press when he doesn’t get a satsfactory answer to him. He’s not stupid and naive either. Does he really think that by going to the press and applying pressure like this the Vatican would really go back on this deal? I don’t think so. yet he still continues despite this. This is even more infuriating. The “rebuke” from Vatican, to me means that what Cadinal Zen is doing may be actually thwarting our common goal: which is to spread the Gospel in China.
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ratio1
Guest
Most people of the West knows Cardinal Zen probably from this incident or maybe from the Occupy Central incident.
I’ve been following his news since he became archbishop of HK in 2002. and quite frankly, he sometimes behaves in a way not befitting a priest, let alone a Cardinal.
What is most dissappointing is that he involves himself in all sorts of political issues, some have nothing to do with the Catholic Church. I’ve watched him over the years how he behaves and in many instances he has overstepped his position IMHO. I think many of you are not aware of this, as these kind of things don’t get reported in the West.
Take the Aug 2013 incident of Ms Lam.
She is a teacher and went to protest on the street (it wasn’t about Catholics at all) and when she was upset at the police she started using foul/obscene language. Afterwards CY (the chief executive of HK at the time) ordered an investigation into the incident. Cardinal Zen got upset at this and said on radio, urging Ms Lam to use obscene language against CY as well. Cardinal Zen subsequently had to “apologise”, saying that it was only a joke.
IMO even jokingly urging someone to use obscene language does not befit a Cardinal. If I were to urge someone to say Fxxx you here I think my post would be deleted.
I’ve been following his news since he became archbishop of HK in 2002. and quite frankly, he sometimes behaves in a way not befitting a priest, let alone a Cardinal.
What is most dissappointing is that he involves himself in all sorts of political issues, some have nothing to do with the Catholic Church. I’ve watched him over the years how he behaves and in many instances he has overstepped his position IMHO. I think many of you are not aware of this, as these kind of things don’t get reported in the West.
Take the Aug 2013 incident of Ms Lam.
She is a teacher and went to protest on the street (it wasn’t about Catholics at all) and when she was upset at the police she started using foul/obscene language. Afterwards CY (the chief executive of HK at the time) ordered an investigation into the incident. Cardinal Zen got upset at this and said on radio, urging Ms Lam to use obscene language against CY as well. Cardinal Zen subsequently had to “apologise”, saying that it was only a joke.
IMO even jokingly urging someone to use obscene language does not befit a Cardinal. If I were to urge someone to say Fxxx you here I think my post would be deleted.
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ratio1
Guest
Lest I’m accused of using biased reports again, here is a media report from the other side:
https://hk.news.appledaily.com/local/daily/article/20130815/18379852
unfortunately there is no english version.
Apple daily is a well known supporter of Cardinal Zen and the “pro-democracy” movement in HK.
The article says:
“陳又笑言梁表現惡劣，應被「粗口」對待，「離譜呀佢，你鬧佢粗口啦你，我支持你」”
I’ll attemp to translate:
Cardinal Zen jokingly said CY (the chief executive of HK)'s performance is very bad, he deserves to be treated with foul/obscene language. Cardinal Zen said; “He (referring to CY) is really unreasonable, you (Ms Lam) go ahead and abuse him (CY) using obscene language, I support you”
You can tell this newspaper supports Cardinal Zen by labeling this as “jokingly”. The whole article rationalises the legitimacy of teachers and Cardinals to use foul language when needed IMO. I listened to the video on the webpage there where it records his exact words. I don’t find it a joke. In any case, even it’s a joke, I don’t think a Cardinal should behave like this. In any case, what does the whole issue have to do with the Catholic Church anyway???
https://hk.news.appledaily.com/local/daily/article/20130815/18379852
unfortunately there is no english version.
Apple daily is a well known supporter of Cardinal Zen and the “pro-democracy” movement in HK.
The article says:
“陳又笑言梁表現惡劣，應被「粗口」對待，「離譜呀佢，你鬧佢粗口啦你，我支持你」”
I’ll attemp to translate:
Cardinal Zen jokingly said CY (the chief executive of HK)'s performance is very bad, he deserves to be treated with foul/obscene language. Cardinal Zen said; “He (referring to CY) is really unreasonable, you (Ms Lam) go ahead and abuse him (CY) using obscene language, I support you”
You can tell this newspaper supports Cardinal Zen by labeling this as “jokingly”. The whole article rationalises the legitimacy of teachers and Cardinals to use foul language when needed IMO. I listened to the video on the webpage there where it records his exact words. I don’t find it a joke. In any case, even it’s a joke, I don’t think a Cardinal should behave like this. In any case, what does the whole issue have to do with the Catholic Church anyway???
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ratio1
Guest
And just to show you what Ms Lam said on the street to the police, so one can understands who this person Cardinal Zen is supporting:
again no english translation,
but she is seen rsaying to the policeman “Arrest me! using foul language is not illegal! Fxxx your mother!”
Now I wouldn’t have care less if this comes from the mouth of thugs, but she is a teacher. And Cardinal Zen supports her. In fact afterwards Ms Lam said afterwards she was too emotional at the time (see previous video) yet Cardinal Zen NOT ONLY did not urge her to regret what she said but ENCOURAGED her to say even more!!!
I’m sorry for all these Chinese links. but I’ve been accused here of making biased claims without factual support. well here are the evidence.
again no english translation,
but she is seen rsaying to the policeman “Arrest me! using foul language is not illegal! Fxxx your mother!”
Now I wouldn’t have care less if this comes from the mouth of thugs, but she is a teacher. And Cardinal Zen supports her. In fact afterwards Ms Lam said afterwards she was too emotional at the time (see previous video) yet Cardinal Zen NOT ONLY did not urge her to regret what she said but ENCOURAGED her to say even more!!!
I’m sorry for all these Chinese links. but I’ve been accused here of making biased claims without factual support. well here are the evidence.
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KMG
Guest
This thread should be closed. The title is offensive to Cardinal Zen, and many posts openly trash the Cardinal in implicit defense of atheistic Communist government authorities. It is an embarrassment to Catholics.
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DustThouArt
Guest
Agreed. Me thinks someone is merely baiting for an argument. I stand with +Cardinal Zen.
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