Cardinal's Clothing Budget $20,000! ?

[Joe_5859]

Come on you guys…everyone has a thought on this issue. Let us discuss this without running to mommy and daddy.

My thought is that thus far there’s not really anything substantial that has been offered upon which I can think.

Now if there was an article that was linked to which would support the assertion in the OP, we could talk. Right now, it’s pretty much just conjecture and hearsay.

 

[Julianna]

So what’s the point of the slander? Are any souls being saved? No. Any poor being fed, sheltered, loved? No. Is a deeper understanding of the Catholic faith being achieved? Nope. If our eminent cardinals are spending inappropriately, His Holiness will deal with it. You know what won’t deal with it? Moaning on the Internet. All this hysteria and misinformation is accomplishing absolutely nothing, except maybe turn others away from the Catholic Church.

I haven’t seen you demonstrate that they have. So all of this falls under the umbrella of…gossip. I hope you’ve been reading what the Pope has said about that.

Repeating this for emphasis:

I slander no one. I observe and comment. Just like you. I don’t live in a fishbowl…the real world out there is pretty ugly and has to be dealt with accordingly. Pope Francis is doing a great job with his softness and humility. My Baptist grammy would always say, “A soft answer turns away wrath.” Our Pope is a great example of this.

I welcome your thoughts and opinions and I hope the mods let this thread continue to offer the OP a chance to prove his/her $20K comment. In reference to Cardinals only, I would make a guess of 1/3 of that cost. But again we all have our 2 cents to deposit.

 

[EphelDuath]

I slander no one. I observe and comment.

Your observations lack a factual basis and your comments are critical in nature. Would it be appropriate if I randomly guessed that you drove a Lexus and made a thread on CAF calling you out on your luxurious spending and hypocrisy? Then why is it ok to do that for our beloved bishops – other than because they’re high profile and easy pickings for criticism?

I welcome your thoughts and opinions and I hope the mods let this thread continue to offer the OP a chance to prove his/her $20K comment. In reference to Cardinals only, I would make a guess of 1/3 of that cost.

Any reason for that guess? Interviewed any bishops or their staff yourself? Spoken to anyone who makes the ecclesial dress themselves? Or just randomly picking a number?

 

[Othmar]

There should be a good balance between tradition and soberness. Extravagance should be limited to liturgical vestments, if there is to be any at all.

That said, I doubt that Cardinal Burke bought all of that. I suppose quite a few of those things were bought by predecessors, or bought second hand.

 

[KrazyKat]

The most interesting and heart lifting information posted is regarding the Cardinal in Boston!

 

[maryjk]

Come on you guys…everyone has a thought on this issue. Let us discuss this without running to mommy and daddy.

Yes, my thoughts are that we should respect our Cardinals.

Oh, and my thoughts are also that gossip is a sin.

 

[Lochias]

I wonder how many people who are fretting about the clothing of the clergy (which, as has been proven, been greatly exaggerated in the link provided) have big-screen TVs, fancy new cars with all the bells and whistles, new video games systems, eat expensive meals in big restaurants, bought out all the toy stores for Christmas, and on and on.

I suspect many, many people talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk. Their opinions are, frankly, quite irrelevant.

 

[jilly4ski]

Thank you for your opinion on what “I” should do. Ain’t America great? We all can come to the table with our thoughts and ideas and be heard.

The hierarchy puts their pants on one leg at a time, just like you and I do. They are human beings, just like us. They have been appointed shepherds for the flock, “us”. If a Cardinal wore blue jeans, cowboy boots and the shirt with the collar, that is fine with me. If he got the jeans on sale a Target for $30.00 even better. I am not “intimidated” by hierarchy as my grandparents who just got off the boat from Italy in 1910. Or my husband’s great granparents who were settling in to their new country due to the potato famine.

The leaders of our Church are not “gods”… I don’t see Thor, or Apollo, or Zeus. I see people, people who are assigned, appointed, have a calling to shepherd their flock. They don’t need to be dripping in gold to get their message across.

To quote Captain America, "There’s only one God, ma’am, and I’m pretty sure He doesn’t dress like that.”

Except that you don’t know how much these people have to spend on their clothing or vestments. You claim that we all know this has been going on for years. But there has been no proof that anything has been going on.

That is like me, criticizing you for all that money you spend on makeup, and clothing. Makeup is expensive, think a makeup budget could pay for the schooling of a child in Africa for a year. (at least). And women’s clothing. Just a work wardrobe, we are talking hundreds of dollars, and in my experience, after a year or 2 of work, things wear out and you have to buy new, not to mention shoes!!!

Of course, I know nothing about how much you spend on such items, nor what your need for such items is. Priests, bishops and cardinals need vestments and their cassocks as surely as a working woman needs her professional wardrobe of blouses/sweaters, dress pants and skirts, dresses, and shoes. So for me to criticize your spending on such items is gossip. I sure hope we would not do the same to those who are trying to serve our spiritual needs.

 

[M-Dent]

Does this thread have any reason to exist, other than to slander our eminent Princes of the Church?

It may be to peddle the false dichotomy of those who dress simple are holy and those who have finer clothing are not.

 

[Lochias]

It may be to peddle the false dichotomy of those who dress simple are holy and those who have finer clothing are not.

A-freaking-men.

 

[Corki]

I’m guessing that $20,000 is a made up number.

A standard cassock from Gammarelli’s is about $800, but it’ll last 10-20 years
A choir cassock may run a bit more, maybe $900, but it’ll last just as long
Facie are about $60
Zuchetti are also about $60
A biretta is about $100-120
Cardinals usually use the same pectoral cross, rochet that they had when they were a bishop.

That puts a cardinal’s wardrobe (not including things like shirts, pants, shoes, et c.) under $2,000. If they wear these things daily, that means that they’re spending less than 40¢ a day on their garb (if everything lasts for 15 years). That’s less per day than what I’m wearing right now, and I’m not wearing anything special.

I think many of the ecclesiastical tailors are still very old-fashioned. They’ll cost a pretty penny, but the stuff could easily last you a lifetime, and if it gets worn out, you can repair it, not replace it.

I would wager that the $20K number includes a full set of vestments for all of the liturgical seasons, something that the Church would need to have anyway, and items that the Cardinal acquired as a Bishop (mitre, crozier, pectoral cross).

This is just someone looking for fault where none exists. [Note: I am not talking about the German bishop here. In that case, there was evidently fault, since he has been suspended.]

 

[EphelDuath]

It may be to peddle the false dichotomy of those who dress simple are holy and those who have finer clothing are not.

Right.

St. Louis King of France, pray for us.

 

[Corki]

To point out a fact is not slander. Pope Francis is working hard to make it known that they are NOT PRINCES but SERVANTS of GOD .

The fact is that Cardinals ARE princes of the Church. I think Pope Francis wants them to act more like servants of the Church* as well as* princes. It may be an outdated way to refer to them but it’s factual to call a Cardinal a prince of the Church. It has nothing to do with the humility or service of the particular Cardinal nor with how much their vestments cost.

 

[KrazyKat]

The fact is that Cardinals ARE princes of the Church. I think Pope Francis wants them to act more like servants of the Church* as well as* princes. It may be an outdated way to refer to them but it’s factual to call a Cardinal a prince of the Church. It has nothing to do with the humility or service of the particular Cardinal nor with how much their vestments cost.

Okay.

Personally I am not concerned with how much they spend on their clothes. I answer to God for my choices.

 

[HB11]

Thank you

Firstly, I do doubt some of the price they’re quoting, because they are a non-Catholic church (“United Ecumenical Catholic Church,” probably one of the independent churches that broke from Rome some time ago), and it appears some of their other writings have anti-Catholic leanings. Secondly, as someone who owns some things from EuroClero and Gammarelli’s, I can state that the slide show exaggerated prices with some things I know the price of.

Next, I’d still like to say that I highly doubt that Raymond Cardinal Burke owns half the things you see in the picture. Most of the photos are most likely from ordinations for traditionalist societies in communion with Rome (probably FSSP or ICKSP), and these societies probably have the vestment sets. If not, Cardinal Burke is probably borrowing them from an archives collection, or the Vatican. This is not at all uncommon.

Out of everything in those pictures, His Eminence probably only owns his cassock, zucchetto, ring, socks, fascia, amice, and alb. There’s a chance it may be his mitre, if he has an odd head size.

Most bishops, as I said, do not have full sets of vestments. They use the diocese’s set, or a set belonging to the parish they visit, and bring a mitre.

Aside from that, one personal complaint I have is that so many journalist and personalities pain Cardinal Burke to be selfish, mean, and the epitome of clericalism. He’s really not. He’s a very patient, kind man, who would surprise you with his pastorality.

 

[HB11]

I would wager that the $20K number includes a full set of vestments for all of the liturgical seasons, something that the Church would need to have anyway, and items that the Cardinal acquired as a Bishop (mitre, crozier, pectoral cross).

This is just someone looking for fault where none exists. [Note: I am not talking about the German bishop here. In that case, there was evidently fault, since he has been suspended.]

 

[Cojuanco]

Before this thread is closed, I would like to point out that the Holy Father is not investigating van Elst because he spent money on vestments. If His Excellency did, it might even have been more useful than what he actually did spend money on (those vestments tend to last a long time, so it’s nowhere near 20k a year as was falsely claimed for Card. Burke. More like 20k for something that lasts about 20 years). It was more to do with excessive spending on his bishop’s palace, especially given he could have renovated the place decently at a much lower price.

I mean, it’s not as if the Holy Father shuns beautiful or valuable vestments, as anyone who sees him say Mass can attest. But he would criticize spending that money on a white elephant of an episcopal residence.

 

[tbcrawford]

Perhaps this may be an article the OP refers to

globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/belief/catholic-church-pope-francis-vestments

"In trying to live up to Jesus’s message about solidarity with the poor, Pope Francis has called for a church geared to social justice. This pope wants church officials to live more modestly.

As he told newly-named bishops in Rome on Sept. 19, according to The Tablet, “We pastors must not be men with a ‘princely mindset.’”

But try telling that to Cardinal Raymond Burke, the chief judge of the Vatican’s supreme court.

The fruits of high officialdom come naturally to Cardinal Raymond Burke, an American, as found in photographs that show him in lavish procession with a train of watered silk, wearing fine scarlet gloves and jeweled red hats, suggesting nobility "

"Cardinal Burke, who made his remarks several weeks before the government shutdown, is often clad in the sumptuous attire of a Prince of the Church, as cardinals are called. Francis seemed to have ornamental practices in mind when he said in an interview with La Repubblica published this week: “Heads of the church have often been narcissists, flattered and thrilled by their courtiers.”

 

[Magnanimous]

There should be a good balance between tradition and soberness. Extravagance should be limited to liturgical vestments, if there is to be any at all.

That said, I doubt that Cardinal Burke bought all of that. I suppose quite a few of those things were bought by predecessors, or bought second hand.

Thank you for this short, but common sense post, because that is the actual reality.

A lot people with hatred of the Church don’t seem to have the ability to differentiate between a cleric’s “street clothing”, and his Liturgical wear, so you have people(many of them Catholics by the looks of this thread) who think that there are Bishops and Cardinals just wandering about the world dressed to the nines in gold embroidered Mitres, Chasubles and Copes all day long, throwing away and changing outfits everyday and season.

That chart with the prices of the Vestments is ridiculous, and seems disingenous. For one thing, some vestments are labeled wrong, making me wonder if the prices are even accurate, and the Mitre looks computer generated…

 

[MorEphrem]

Sensationalism at it’s finest.

To the person who posted the bishop’s vestments with price tags on everything on the first page… yes, vestments are expensive. Even a non-ornate chasuble (and the one you showed it not made of gold, FYI) costs more than $1000 (try buying vestments… even if you have someone sew them and not charge you labor, the material alone is expensive for an entire set). Prudence is one thing, but these diagrams that show price tags if you sold at the purchase value of things demonstrate (1) a lack of understanding in sunken cost and (2) an idea that everything should be as simple as possible just to essentially function, even if it is being put to the service of God. To shame bishops because the amount they spend (if prudential) is an intrusion of Puritanism and a triumph of values over religion (one should remember, values are part of orthodoxy but values do not dictate religion… i.e. when Judas says the perfumed used to anoint Jesus could’ve been sold for the poor (Matthew 26:6-13), it seems more important that homage be paid to God.

If we are to judge people by what might seem exorbitant to us at a glance without looking into the matter, why are we permitted to judge witlessly in this circumstance and not others? And even if perhaps a bishop bought something a tad more expensive than necessary because of a deficiency in their judgment, has your prudence always been perfect in retrospect? Are you a terrible person because you purchased a new TV when you had your old one from the '90s? Or perhaps a new laptop when your old one was noticeably slower than the new models? To amend for it, did you sell all your possessions and your house and downsize to an apartment in a bad neighbor?

The people who defect from the Faith for these reasons do not have faith to begin with because when the sun rises their shallow roots are scorched. Instead of passing judgment on matters I don’t know, I’ll do as the Syrian proverb says and leave the accusation to God.