Cardinals Discuss Pentecostal Threats

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Lovemyfaith said:
VATICAN CITY - The Roman Catholic Church must figure out what it is doing wrong in the battle for souls, because so many Catholics are leaving the church to join Pentecostal and other evangelical movements, a top Vatican cardinal said Friday.
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**I think it has a lot to do with those cultures that literally thrive on emotional excitement; I also think it has a lot to do with those uneducated in their own Faith. Many nondenominational pentecostal communities and other evangelical groups - for better or worse - educate their people in scripture but also introduce an anti-Catholic flair to their teachings and approach. Those who are “surface Catholics” are easy prey. Also, those who base all of the religious experience on their personal emotions are also prey to all sorts of anti-Catholic methods.

It has been my contention that we have lost two successive generations already to poor catechetical training and poor theological formation of our priests and religious. It doesn’t surprise me of those abandoning the Church for 'greener fields."**
 
I think that part of the problem the Church is having is with lack of firm teaching from Priests and Bishops in many places. I have been to so many masses where the Priest just makes vague statements about charity or prayer but does not address the serious moral issues we face. If we had more clergy spreading the teaching of the Church boldly, it would make a lot of difference.

An additional problem is the rampant abuse and heterodoxy in some places along with the seeming inaction on the part of the hierarchy. People do notice things like the incident where the Archbishop San Francisco gave communion to men dressed in mock nun habit or the Bishop of Portsmouth endorsing legalized prostitution. Every time something like that happens, there will be people who begin to look at the Protestant churches. I think that at the least the Vatican needs to communicate more with the faithful when these scandals arise so that we know something is being done.
 
Many have complained for years that the Penetcostals put a lot of emphasis on Jesus and morality and tend to neglect Social Justice. Maybe the Cardinals should note what works and copy rather than complain.
 
Joe_Kelley said:
Many have complained for years that the Penetcostals put a lot of emphasis on Jesus and morality and tend to neglect Social Justice. Maybe the Cardinals should note what works and copy rather than complain.
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Good point. In Central America they say if you want to be fed go the the Catholic church. If you want to learn about salvation and how to get eternal life go the the Protestants. I am paraphrasing here.

The church has not generally taught the fiathful why they should be catholic. In South America, in North Amrica.

My impression is that the Biblical knowledge, understanding is so lacking among Catholics that “few can give a reason” and increasing num,bers convert.

For every Epsiocopal bishop (4 this year) that embraces Catholicsim there are hundreds of thousands leaving the Catholic church.

From a physical sense the Catholic church is in collapse. Even in the touted Africa, which the article mentions, the Pentecostals are drawing many catholics to convert.
 
rien said:
For every Epsiocopal bishop (4 this year) that embraces Catholicsim there are hundreds of thousands leaving the Catholic church.

From a physical sense the Catholic church is in collapse. Even in the touted Africa, which the article mentions, the Pentecostals are drawing many catholics to convert.
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**Ironically, though, for the tens of thousands (not hundreds of thousands) that leave the Church for one reason or another, there are tens of thousands who come into its fold.

The Church will never collapse, and to say that it is in free fall is fatalistic and wrong thinking. At 1.6 billion Catholics in the world some are bound to leave and many are bound to enter. Why? Because of Christ’s promise that He will be with the Church until His return, and that the Holy Spirit will always guide and protect His Church.

You seem to forget that.**
 
peary said:
**Ironically, though, for the tens of thousands (not hundreds of thousands) that leave the Church for one reason or another, there are tens of thousands who come into its fold.

The Church will never collapse, and to say that it is in free fall is fatalistic and wrong thinking. At 1.6 billion Catholics in the world some are bound to leave and many are bound to enter. Why? Because of Christ’s promise that He will be with the Church until His return, and that the Holy Spirit will always guide and protect His Church.

You seem to forget that.**
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Where do you get 1.6 billion? It is I believe just over a billion. Not that that matters. In France and Spain they count like 90% of the population Catholic, but that is simply no longer true. Many Catholics in France and Spain are embracing Islam or secularism. Pentecostalism too but less so than Islam.

One of the major forces in the conversion of Central Americans to islam comes from a Spanish Islamic missionary group.

I think, with all due respect, you are in denial on this.
 
rien said:
Where do you get 1.6 billion? It is I believe just over a billion. Not that that matters. In France and Spain they count like 90% of the population Catholic, but that is simply no longer true. Many Catholics in France and Spain are embracing Islam or secularism. Pentecostalism too but less so than Islam.

One of the major forces in the conversion of Central Americans to islam comes from a Spanish Islamic missionary group.

I think, with all due respect, you are in denial on this.
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Actually, I take Christ’s promise at face value. Obviously, you have a problem with it.
 
There is a middle ground between the Church doing well and the Church failing. To say that the Church is struggling right now is not the same as to say that Christ’s promise has been broken.

There are a lot of problems we need to deal with. Those problems will only be solved through strongly orthodox clergy and the faithful who support them. The fact is that at too many parishes I have been to, there is a lukewarm Priest who rarely talks about things which are serious topics in our society like sexual morality, divorce, or abortion. In too many parishes, we are not taught why we need Christ. The message that we are sinners who need to repent is muted by Priests who are unwilling to talk about it.

This is not the fault of the Church itself, which has taught the truth in no uncertain terms and still does. But renewal is needed.

It is true that the number of Catholics in official estimates is deceptive. I have met far more cultural Catholics in my life than I have faithful practitioners of Catholic beliefs. I lived in Spain myself and I saw how secular a nation it was. People I knew who were Catholic freely told me that they did not have to follow the Church’s doctrines.

The way to renewal is going to be through getting serious and preaching the real Catholic faith without watering it down.
 
It seems that there is an idea that as Catholics we have to toe some sort of party line, as if our faith were an ideology. On the contrary, the Catholic faith is all about truth, and we don’t have to be afraid of the truth, wherever it comes from.
While the Church is indefectible by the promise of Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail, we must not kid ourselves into thinking that Jesus insures the survival of his Church in any particular place. North Africa used to be Christian, but it would be very hard to find any Christians there now. The seven churches in Asia of the book of Revelation no longer exist. Will the Church in America go the way of those seven churches? That is entirely possible, if we do not repent (Rev 2:5).
As a Catholic, I am not afraid to admit that Protestants are generally beating the socks off of Catholics in the field of proclaiming Christ to non-Christians and, most unfortunately, to nominal Catholics who for whatever reason are far from Him. A Pentecostal minister, as imperfect as his message is, probably does much more for the Church than a lukewarm Catholic. In the wisdom of God, what could this mean for the Catholic Church? Why is He permitting this to happen? If we love the Church, we should ask Him! I think that is exactly what Pope Benedict and the Cardinals are doing, not just accusing the Protestants of proselytism, but asking God and each other what all this means for the mission of the Church to all nations.
I think people need to hear the Church talk about Jesus and the Holy Spirit more than they need to hear about just social structures. There is no contradiction, but there is a question of priorities. They need to hear the reason for the hope that is in us. If they’re Catholics, they need to learn how to live the sacraments with living faith and trust in our heavenly Father.
 
peary said:
Then why are you here?
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I too am a former Catholic and I take great offense at this question as it is asked often. Just because one leaves the church does not mean that they have no connection to it. We remain culturally bound because our country or family or some other social unit remains attached to the church. Indeed, many who have left the church remain concerned for her welfare.

I beg to remind you that this is an open forum, open to all, including non-catholics. It seems to me that you should engage those who have left rather than discount what they say. Listen to what the Cardinal said in his interview.
“We shouldn’t begin by asking ourselves what is wrong with the Pentecostals, but what our own pastoral shortcomings are,”
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This Cardinal sounds like a wise man. You can wrap yourself around Jesus’ promise to his Church or you can do what Jesus said to do to make his church great. Frankly, a lot of folks around this forum deserve the Church they get.

Nohome
 
peary said:
Ironically, though, for the tens of thousands (not hundreds of thousands) that leave the Church for one reason or another, there are tens of thousands who come into its fold.

**The Church will never collapse, and to say that it is in free fall is fatalistic and wrong thinking. At 1.6 billion Catholics in the world some are bound to leave and many are bound to enter. Why? Because of Christ’s promise that He will be with the Church until His return, and that the Holy Spirit will always guide and protect His Church. **

You seem to forget that.
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👍 !
 
.
Reverent and humble worship of God and the Holy Eucharist ='s the release of the Holy Spirit.
Grace flowing into hearts ='s a Holy Priesthood and a Great people of God!
The time is coming when the individualism of many will crumble.
That which was given and is given is central to our very life in the Spirit and this will stand until the end of time.
Pope Benedict is pointing us towards a return and renewal of the very heart of our faith.
Reverant and humble worship of God for what He has done and is doing.
This begins with the Mass. **
We need to listen carefully and to heed!!!
When the Light draws near it does not always feel good but it is necessary!
We need to be receptive** to this truth on a very deep level for we already have what is needed.
We need to take off our shoes for we are on Holy Ground indeed!
.
 
Pentacostalism looks to be the catalyst for a schism within the Church. The Church will demograhically become smaller and at the same time be more graced.
 
This kind of debate has been going on for years. In my own community, I’ve seen many leave, drawn by the simplified teachings (it’s almost like being handed a road map to heaven), vibrant preaching & singing and emotionalism. I’ve also seen our parish respond by adopting some of what was drawing people elsewhere.

Now, a decade or two later, we all seem to have matured. A not insignificant number have returned to the fold. Maybe they simply realized, just like I did that it’s not about the clapping, dancing, hand raising etc. The walk of faith is simply about finding and holding on to something outside our personal inclinations/emotions/interpretations - unchanging Truth…
 
I am glad you returned to your spiritual roots. In Pentacostalism, i do not sense an inner contemplative essence. To find God is to find Him in quiet. God’s voice comes in a whisper. There can be no greater closeness to God than receiving His Son in the Holy Eucharist.
 
ppeter said:
It seems that there is an idea that as Catholics we have to toe some sort of party line, as if our faith were an ideology. On the contrary, the Catholic faith is all about truth, and we don’t have to be afraid of the truth, wherever it comes from.
While the Church is indefectible by the promise of Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail, we must not kid ourselves into thinking that Jesus insures the survival of his Church in any particular place. North Africa used to be Christian, but it would be very hard to find any Christians there now. The seven churches in Asia of the book of Revelation no longer exist. Will the Church in America go the way of those seven churches? That is entirely possible, if we do not repent (Rev 2:5).
As a Catholic, I am not afraid to admit that Protestants are generally beating the socks off of Catholics in the field of proclaiming Christ to non-Christians and, most unfortunately, to nominal Catholics who for whatever reason are far from Him. A Pentecostal minister, as imperfect as his message is, probably does much more for the Church than a lukewarm Catholic. In the wisdom of God, what could this mean for the Catholic Church? Why is He permitting this to happen? If we love the Church, we should ask Him! I think that is exactly what Pope Benedict and the Cardinals are doing, not just accusing the Protestants of proselytism, but asking God and each other what all this means for the mission of the Church to all nations.
I think people need to hear the Church talk about Jesus and the Holy Spirit more than they need to hear about just social structures. There is no contradiction, but there is a question of priorities. They need to hear the reason for the hope that is in us. If they’re Catholics, they need to learn how to live the sacraments with living faith and trust in our heavenly Father.
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Well, the Bible does say that in the last days there would be a general falling away from the Faith, and I believe this is happening. However, there were some good insights in the H&P Review this month with regard to what should the Church be teaching and what should be its emphasis. The article, Why Catholicism, by James V. Schall, SJ, says that the answer includes the fact that the Church proclaims the truth about God, humankind and the world and has a mission from God to lead all humanity to eternal life. The Church must stand against a skeptical world by affirming that man can know some important truths about God, humankind, and the world with certainty. In order for that to occur, the Church must be true to its mission and must teach the Faith accurately and without cowardice.
 
Nohome said:
I too am a former Catholic and I take great offense at this question as it is asked often.
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Why in the world would you be offended at this question? I don’t believe that the question is unreasonable and can actually be asked out of genuine curiosity.
 
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