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jay29
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So you left the church based on the actions of the sinners, rather than the truth it upholds?
Translation: Weak faith.
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KathleenElsie
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When someone KNOWS that their MASS is TRULY the HOLY sacrifice and actually has OUR LORD and SAVIOR in our Communion not just a re-enactment they (young and old) are more likely to remain Catholic. When we turn our CCD and Youth programs into an entertainment factor prior to teaching Catholic Truths, we are more likely to loose many of the poorly educated to all the fun and clappy happy social stuff.
There is a place for the clappy happy stuff. I love music, parties and fellowship. I HUNGER for the Sacrifice that is our Mass. I was a convert when I was in my teens. We have two teens in the process of joining the Catholic Church and five adults this year. And it is not because of the clappy happy stuff. Converts and reverts come to the Catholic Church because they know we are teaching the truth.
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Muzhik
Guest
Revelations, Shalom!
I’m jumping in because I frequently post comments on a blog run by Joel Rosenberg. He’s the guy who’s written several fiction books that describe events that actually occur shortly after the book is published. He bases his work on the prophesies of Ezekiel, specifically chapters 38-39 – the War of Gog and Magog. (He’s recently published a book called “Epicenter” showing how events described in Ezekiel are coming to pass today – excellent read for people trying to understand events in Israel today.)
As you might imagine, the blog draws quite a few Evangelical and Fundamentalist posters, as well as Christian Zionists. When I let it be known that I was Catholic, I suffered my share of abuse; but by continuing to post and attempting to maintain a respectful attitude, I’ve become accepted and receive comments such as, “I’ve never looked at it that way before.”
I bring this up because what shocked me were the number of former Catholics there who complained that when they were growing up, the only religious instruction that they remembered was that they needed to be good and pray to Mary and the saints. As one person replied to me, “It wasn’t until I became saved that I learned that Jesus loved me and died for my sins.” When you come from a background like that, it’s kinda hard to fight against “once saved, always saved.”
I can only hope and pray that I get a chance to lead a CCD or RCIA class, to show that, yes, Catholics DO read the Bible, and yes, all of our beliefs have a basis there.
Speaking of reading the bible, you might want to try BibleGateway
(biblegateway.com/. It’s a searchable database with the full text of several dozen different translations in a multitude of languages, that lets you look up passages by keyword. By typing in, “casting out demons” in the keyword search, I found that the section is in Mark 9:38-40. I then go to the New American Bible online (usccb.org/nab/bible/ and confirm the location of the quote. The Catholic and Protestant versions of translations don’t always agree on numbering. For example, the NAB has the Book of Joel with 4 chapters, while the Protestant translations merge Joel 3 with Joel 4.
Sha-alu Shalom Yirushalayim!
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m134e5
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I hate to say this…but someone should have said this 30 years ago (or more).
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Nohome
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You know nothing of me or my faith.So you left the church based on the actions of the sinners, rather than the truth it upholds?
Translation: Weak faith.
I was once told (by a Priest) “Anything standing in the light of God still casts a shadow”. The RCC, as great as it is, still casts a shadow because it is run by men. I find myself in that shadow and here it is hard to see anything else. That is why I choose not to be Catholic.
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retrovert
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If you ever thought of coming back I’m ashamed to say you won’t find much encouragement among these posts or this web site. The Catholic Church is beautiful, but this place seems to draw those full of rancor, superiority, and little concern for the feelings of others, especially non-Catholics. May you find the peace you are looking for elsewhere. Hang in there & God Bless…
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Nohome
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I know you wrote this as an aside, but it is relevant to the topic of this thread. The Cardinal is a smart man when he says “We shouldn’t begin by asking ourselves what is wrong with the Pentecostals, but what our own pastoral shortcomings are,”
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retrovert
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Amen to that…
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irenaeus1
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Yes, I read Post #13… I just thought that it may be more deep then cultural.
I’m sorry that that happened to your family. But this seems to beg the question even more regarding cultural ties.
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irenaeus1
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What church or ecclesial community then is NOT run by men? If you cannot identify one, then what is the point of that statement?
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irenaeus1
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It seems to me that both issues have been discussed on this thread; i.e., what our own pastoral shortcomings are and what is wrong with the Pentecostals.
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Nohome
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To say “I left the Catholic Church” does not in any way imply that I joined a different one. My point is what it is.
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bakhita
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Amen to that. Get this dialogue back on track!
I think another attraction to Pentecostalism is it’s “comfortable.” While Catholic teaching promotes the idea that we must pick up our cross and follow Christ…and that suffering has value–Pentecostal preachers by and large teach that you don’t have to suffer, that if you do the right things (i.e. donate 1/10 of your income or more to their particular ministry) you’ll get rich, have all kinds of blessings, etc.
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Nohome
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I disagree, the big difference is that the Pentecostals focus on the individual. It is a very personal (dare I say self-centered) system of beliefs. This can be very appealing to Catholics, because it is easy to become anonymous in the RCC.
When is the last time you received a phone call from the RCC asking why you missed church last Sunday? Have they checked to make sure you are O.K. or if you need anything? This is the level of dialog these churches have with their people. I’m not saying the RCC should do this too, but this is your “competition” and it is the model they follow.
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Mannyfit75
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Could you not reform and address these abuses from within rather than leave? To me it sound like those 70 disciples who left Jesus after he told them that they have to eat his flesh and drink his blood in the Bread Discourse in John 6.
There has been action taken by the Vatican itself to combat the scandal and it starts in the seminary.
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Steeltemplar
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A problem with your use of this analogy is that you assume a priori that you can apply it to the Catholic Church. Yet that is not proven.
The Church in a temporal sense may be “run by men” but ultimately, and in terms of doctrine - which is the important part, it is run by God. The human component is, well, human. But that is also irrelevant.
I would posit a different possible application of the analogy. What if our own human natures are what casts the darkest shadow, standing in the way of the light of God in our lives? What if we ourselves are the greatest barrier to our more fully living as God wishes? And what if the Church itself (not the men who are involved) is the means of piercing that shadow with the light of God?
Human beings are imperfect and sinful. That includes those who “run” the Church in the temporal sense. Yet what we also must remember is that Protestantism is equally run by men. Even if you never listen to anyone else and just interpret scripture for yourself, it’s still run by a sinful human being - you. The human component is always there. Pointing at the Church and saying it is “run by men” is meaningless.
One of the beautiful aspects of Catholicism is that it shows how God acknowledges the failings of men and took measures in His perfect wisdom to safeguard the faith from those failings. That is why He protects the doctrine of the faith from being compromised. We are not being offered perfect people or perfect leaders in the Church. You will not find that anywhere in mortal life. But we are being offered perfect doctrine, which is of God and not of man at all - man being only the servants by which he delivers that doctrine. And that truth is only through the Church.
The Church does not cast a shadow to obscure our faith, but instead helps us to clear away the personal shadow of our own human pride.
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Brendan
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I heard that from a Columbian friend. She said that in Columbia,
“If you want to hear about unions, go to a priest; if you want to hear about Christ, go to a protestant”
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Steeltemplar
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You certainly have my sympathy about that. I assure you, as someone who loves the Church, I am outraged by these abuses.
Such abuse, though, is absolutely against the Church’s teachings. Human beings, sinful and imperfect, brought this evil about. However, that does not mean the Church itself is responsible. It means that some men associated with the Church were. You have every right to be upset and frustrated by the matter. It is a huge challenge to your faith. But I would urge you to consider the fact that the Church and the men who are involved with it are not in fact one and the same. The doctrines of the Church oppose in every way the abuses which took place.
In short: These abuses occurred because of people not following the Church’s teachings.
There is sin and corruption everywhere in the mortal world. So should we be searching for a church where there is none? That would be futile. Perhaps we should be searching instead for the Church that teaches the truth.
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bakhita
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I see what you’re saying. Though I know someone–a Presbyterian who went to a Pentecostal church one week just to check it out. They didn’t stop calling her for weeks after that–and sometimes one of the associate pastors would just happen to stop by her house. It was very creepy, very cult-like and very off-putting.
Having said that, I do think there is more room in the Catholic Church for reaching out to individuals. I once commented to my priest about how hard it is to get to know people within the parish and he said that was a problem in many parishes and he wasn’t sure how to remedy it. It leaves some Catholics feeling a little isolated from the people in the pews around them. Not that we’re there for a social gathering (I’m afraid some Protestant churches in some places are as much social clubs as they are houses of worship) but that is an area we Catholics have some room for improvement.
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