Cardinals Discuss Pentecostal Threats

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Logically, we are having a shortage of priests everywhere. This inhibits their “followups” of parishioners that are noticably absent.

Since there are more deacons being installed like never before why not have THEM do the “followups?”
 
I see what you’re saying. Though I know someone–a Presbyterian who went to a Pentecostal church one week just to check it out. They didn’t stop calling her for weeks after that–and sometimes one of the associate pastors would just happen to stop by her house. It was very creepy, very cult-like and very off-putting.

Having said that, I do think there is more room in the Catholic Church for reaching out to individuals.
Logically, we are having a shortage of priests everywhere. This inhibits their “followups” of parishioners that are noticeably absent.
The key difference here, is parishioners who are NOTICEABLY absent. We get a lot of people who sign up as parishioners, but NEVER come to mass. This way they can have their kids in the school, and get the parish discount. Our pastor will not call the parents and ask why they are not in church on Sunday - he calls it Roll Call. But then, when a member of their family dies, they want a Catholic funeral!
I disagree, the big difference is that the Pentecostals focus on the individual. It is a very personal (dare I say self-centered) system of beliefs. This can be very appealing to Catholics, because it is easy to become anonymous in the RCC.

When is the last time you received a phone call from the RCC asking why you missed church last Sunday? Have they checked to make sure you are O.K. or if you need anything? This is the level of dialog these churches have with their people. I’m not saying the RCC should do this too, but this is your “competition” and it is the model they follow.

Nohome
I’m sorry, I have to disagree with you. In our parish we have a welcome committee to greet new parishioners, and a health ministry for the elderly, sick, and shut-ins. From these stemmed a grief ministry, which visits the family of the deceased the DAY of the death. We have Christ Renews His Parish (CRHP) week-ends for ladies and men (on separate week-ends) on the church grounds. These helps parishioners to get to know one another while developing deep spiritual bonds with Christ and one another. I have participated and given these retreat week-ends and have personally witnessed miracles of healing.

And STILL, some say we are not a welcoming parish!!! It is the ones who don’t want to get involved, are whiney, and then say “they don’t feel like they belong.” You can only hit somebody over the head so many times with invitations. (That’s what it feels like when I ask people to come on the retreat or join choir, or help me with welcome).
 
You can only hit somebody over the head so many times with invitations. (That’s what it feels like when I ask people to come on the retreat or join choir, or help me with welcome).
I was thinking you had an exceptional Parish until I read your last statement. You sort of contradict yourself. First you say you have great outreach, then you say it is like pulling teeth to get people to participate.

I can honestly say I’ve be welcomed to Mass once in my lifetime. All others, in locations around the world, have been polite but by no means welcoming. People attend Mass in spite of how they are treated.

Nohome
 
I was a Protestant for around twenty years. I have been a Catholic for around six. In that time, I have been to a variety of Protestant churches and Catholic parishes.

My observation has been that there are plenty of Protestant churches which do not specifically welcome people. And while I have not been to quite so many Catholic parishes, I have definitely been welcomed in some.

One of the things which should be kept in mind is that oftentimes in churches, as with any community, you need to do your own part. That means that you should not wait around for people to come over to you, wondering why they haven’t yet. If you want to get welcomed, then introducing yourself does wonders. Suddenly you find out that there is coffee and pastries in the basement, there are several groups you could join, and there are people who want to meet you and introduce you to other people. That has generally been my experience. Sometimes it does not happen. Interestingly, the best welcome I ever got was at a very conservative parish and the worst was at a very liberal parish.

It’s not a sure thing, but it really makes sense. At your average church, there are a lot of people. The Priests and deacons need to attend to a lot. The other parishioners probably could never memorize everyone and know off hand who is new. So just like in other social situations, sometimes you have to take the first step.
 
**Some ancient Greek religions also practiced what we call “speaking in tongues”. So, there ya go ** 😛
 
I disagree, the big difference is that the Pentecostals focus on the individual. It is a very personal (dare I say self-centered) system of beliefs. This can be very appealing to Catholics, because it is easy to become anonymous in the RCC.

When is the last time you received a phone call from the RCC asking why you missed church last Sunday? Have they checked to make sure you are O.K. or if you need anything? This is the level of dialog these churches have with their people. I’m not saying the RCC should do this too, but this is your “competition” and it is the model they follow.

Nohome
There is an excellent book out by Jean M. Twenge, Ph.D. called “Generation Me: Why Today’s Young Americans are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled – and More Miserable than Ever Before”. generationme.org/ She is a social psychologist and has used standardized personality tests that have been given at major univerisities since the 50’s to document changes in how young people perceive themselves and their place in society. (It’s the one book I couldn’t read before going to sleep, because I found it too depressing.) In short, there has been a definite break or disruption in how “Generation Me” views their responsibilities towards others, namely, they don have any.

One of the subjects she discusses is the growth in religious belief in this generation. Many more people of this generation are going to church and describing themselves as religious compared to Generations X and Y. When you dig deeper, though, it gets more disturbing.

The biggest decline has been in mainstream churches: Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, etc. The biggest growth has been in Evangelical and Pentecostal churches, i.e., the churches that emphasize “a personal relationship with Jesus.” What’s happening is that these people are forming “a personal relationship with Jesus” at the expense of relationships with the community. Mainstream churches tend to emphasize the importance of “being a witness to Christ” through your words and deeds – there is a responsibility towards the rest of the community. When your goal is to perfect your “personal relationship with Jesus”, though, your words and actions towards the community don’t count for anything, and in fact can be detrimental, since you could then fall into the trap of “works-based salvation.”

The exception to this is evangelism. Charitable organizations run by Evangelical and Fundamentalist churches usually involve some sort of preaching – you don’t get the food without hearing a sermon or at the very least getting a pamphlet. Mainstream churches tend to offer social programs because it is a good thing to do (good works), believing that their actions are preaching enough.

To me, the biggest example of these differences came when a charity that had been founded and run by Catholics (as opposed to a Catholic group) was opening an eye clinic in India. As a non-profit NGO they started making the rounds looking for money. When they met with a group of Evangelicals, they were welcomed with great enthusiasm. In the end, though, the Evangelicals had only one complaint: Nowhere in their services was anyone preaching Christ. There was no one telling these people about Christ as they waited for services or waited to go home, no one was giving them literature, etc. The charity’s organizers were shocked. In their view, the simple fact that they were offering these services free of charge was in itself preaching to the people.

So when the Cardinals look at what the Pentecostals are doing, I hope they look at the end results of the people’s spiritual lives, too, and not just the number of souls attending Mass. (or as I said to a priest friend years ago, when he said he served in a parish of 3000 souls, and I asked, “Yes, but how many bodies?”)
😃 😃
 
Muzhik, awesome post. I’m at university now, and ‘GenMe’ describes everything all too well.

For example, University students up here in Quebec are “protesting” for free and accessible education. They argue that it is a fundamental right of every person. Their recommended solution is to raise taxes to pay for their education. Arguing with them is futile, I’ve tried at numerous student politics events.
[as an aside, tuition is 1700$ per semester for local students…i’m happy with that :D]

Anyways, very good link, and very very true.
 
Many have complained for years that the Penetcostals put a lot of emphasis on Jesus and morality and tend to neglect Social Justice. Maybe the Cardinals should note what works and copy rather than complain.
Maybe truth and holiness are more important than “what works.”

Edwin
 
To say “I left the Catholic Church” does not in any way imply that I joined a different one. My point is what it is.
I never stated that you joined another church, and your point is incomplete. Stating that the church is run by men is stating the obvious. So again, what is the point you are trying to make?
 
I think another attraction to Pentecostalism is it’s “comfortable.” While Catholic teaching promotes the idea that we must pick up our cross and follow Christ…and that suffering has value–Pentecostal preachers by and large teach that you don’t have to suffer, that if you do the right things (i.e. donate 1/10 of your income or more to their particular ministry) you’ll get rich, have all kinds of blessings, etc.
We have to be careful no to generalize (which is difficult at times since there are so many views within Protestantism), but it depends on what faith tradition of Pentecostals to whom you are referring. Tim Staples and Alex Jones will tell you that they experienced two very different groups within the Pentecostal world.
 
The key difference here, is parishioners who are NOTICEABLY absent. We get a lot of people who sign up as parishioners, but NEVER come to mass. This way they can have their kids in the school, and get the parish discount. Our pastor will not call the parents and ask why they are not in church on Sunday - he calls it Roll Call. But then, when a member of their family dies, they want a Catholic funeral!

I’m sorry, I have to disagree with you. In our parish we have a welcome committee to greet new parishioners, and a health ministry for the elderly, sick, and shut-ins. From these stemmed a grief ministry, which visits the family of the deceased the DAY of the death. We have Christ Renews His Parish (CRHP) week-ends for ladies and men (on separate week-ends) on the church grounds. These helps parishioners to get to know one another while developing deep spiritual bonds with Christ and one another. I have participated and given these retreat week-ends and have personally witnessed miracles of healing.

And STILL, some say we are not a welcoming parish!!! It is the ones who don’t want to get involved, are whiney, and then say “they don’t feel like they belong.” You can only hit somebody over the head so many times with invitations. (That’s what it feels like when I ask people to come on the retreat or join choir, or help me with welcome).
Sounds like my parish, and I can’t agree more. We have a medium sized parish (about 1400 families), and I presume that a newcomer could get lost in the crowd if they don’t make themselves known. I have been a member of my parish for years before I realized that an acquaintance with whom I work attends the same parish. It’s just that I seldom ever attend 8:00 am Mass, which is when this particular person always attended. Pentecostal churches are often quite small and have one maybe two services, and so one easily notices if you miss a couple of Sundays.

But it seems to me that most of those who believe that my parish is not very welcoming are probably the same people who rush out after Mass without stopping in the hall for socializing, coffee, and doughnuts. Sure we can always improve, but also many people are just complainers.
 
IYou sort of contradict yourself. First you say you have great outreach, then you say it is like pulling teeth to get people to participate.
Why is that a contradiction? You are confusing the gift given with the response of the receiver.
 
I was thinking you had an exceptional Parish until I read your last statement. You sort of contradict yourself. First you say you have great outreach, then you say it is like pulling teeth to get people to participate.

I can honestly say I’ve be welcomed to Mass once in my lifetime. All others, in locations around the world, have been polite but by no means welcoming. People attend Mass in spite of how they are treated.

Nohome
I was not clear. We have a great outreach, but some will not respond. These are the whiners who want it all without participating. This minority has a loud voice.

St. Francis of Assisi said “preach always, use words when necessary”
 
I never stated that you joined another church, and your point is incomplete. Stating that the church is run by men is stating the obvious. So again, what is the point you are trying to make?
My point, plain and simple, was that the Church is imperfect. Regrettably, I’ve seen the very worst it has to offer. It is not a place for me.

Nohome
 
My point, plain and simple, was that the Church is imperfect. Regrettably, I’ve seen the very worst it has to offer. It is not a place for me.

Nohome
**The Church comes in three parts: the Church Militant (on earth), the Church Suffering (souls in purgatory) and the Church Triumphant (in Heaven). As you can see, three-quarters of the Church IS imperfect because people sin. Now, if you can find an ecclesial community where nobody sins, please do yourself a big favor and join it.

By the way, the Church is for sinners, not the self-righteous.**
 
Back in 2004 and 2005, groups of Pentacostals were coming out of Lansing Michigan and “visiting” the parking lots on Sundays of two Catholic parishes, and also encouraging Catholics in those communities to consider becoming True Believers.

This effort at “sheep stealing” obviously bothered the two pastors. Thankfully it bothered them to the point where they invited the heads of the pentacostals to a meeting to discuss boundaries on what is fair and what is not, and also to answer some of the concerns the pentacostals had for our salvation.

The pastors, untrained in apologetics as most priests are today, recognized their own shortcomings… and also invited a couple of Catholics to join the meeting… Steve Ray and Gary Michuta. Ouch.

Needless to say, the Pentacostals were dumbfounded that there were good, solid, reasonable answers to their accusations.

So. The Pastors followed that meeting with plans for Apologetic Conferences. In early 2006 the first conference was held with Ray, Michuta, Shea, Bennett, and Shoemann and the pastor as the speakers.

In the middle of farm country, many miles away from population, the conference drew 800 people! It proved the hunger to know the faith is there. It really needs to be nurtured.

This year, same parish and again a joint effort, Dr Scott Hahn drew another 800.
Less than two months later, the second parish had Tim Staples as its speaker… again sold out.

All the conferences were free. A free will collection more than paid the bill. People gave in gratitude !!

Are Catholics willing to learn? Yes!

Are some priests willing to attain that goal? Yes!

Concerned about the pentacostal threat… do something. If your parish won’t sponsor an event, find one that will and support it. There are speakers - priests and laity - all over. I am amazed how many people I meet (Catholic, duh) who really DO know their faith. Some of them are also willing to share it.

We gotta get busy. It will be so easy, you will be in awe. Granted, we can’t all have a Hahn or Staples to speak… but this forum alone could provide names and numbers everywhere of capable people.

maybe a thread idea… “Who In Your Area Can Speak on Apologetics…”
 
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