Caritas Catholic Health System Will Refer for Abortions Not Do Them

[JReducation]

I don’t think the Cardinal has made a definite decision to remain associated with Caritas. At Least I haven’t heard of it. Perhaps he is dilly dallying and delaying his answer like many of the other clergy here in the US in hopes we forget all about it. Busy lives, you know?? If he takes a stance and boots Caritas out from being sponsered by the Boston Diocese, I apologize in advance. Let’s wait and see what happens.

Did you see what I posted above that came from the Cardinal himself? Check out the full article on cardinalseansblog.org or on the above link.

It is very uncharitable and dangerous to presume to know that one of the holiest bishops and most well educated in Catholic theology and mysticial theology is going to sell out. Especially, when he has already called in experts in the field of Catholic bioethics as consultants before he hands down his verdict.

We’re speaking about a man who has been one of the Church’s fire fighters since the sexual abuse scandal broke out. He has rescued several dioceses by cleaning them up. He was also the Church’s frontline missionary to the poor, especially the immigrant poor.

He is a member of one of the most orthodox religious orders in the USA and his record is impeccable.

I for one am willing to stand for this man and put my head on the chopping block for him after living and working with him for many years.

He is a holy brother, prayerful, faithful to the Church and his order. He is also faithful to the needs of the poorest of the poor. He has doubled the number of seminarians in the Boston diocese and brought in four new Franciscan religious communities into his diocese to live among the poor. He sold the Archbishop’s mansion and gave the money to the diocese and lives in an apartment in a high risk neighborhood of Boston with several other Capuchin Brothers. The man doesn’t even own a car. His wardrobe consists of two habits and one suit. Finally, he is not a dummy. He is highly educated in matters of law and faith.

We have to be careful not to see or anticipate conspiracies every where.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[JReducation]

Fox noted statements from Centene that the joint venture would include abortions and said O’Malley "has given a guarantee that I don’t think he is capable of giving, given what they have said in public."

I posted the quote from Centene on Cardinal Sean’s blog and it my post was removed. I wonder if this is another case of Cardinal Sean trying to look good to orthodox Catholics while letting non orthodox Catholics do what they want to do.

One of the posters said that Cardinal Sean was very orthodox yet he petitioned Rome to allow women’s feet to be washed at Easter when the instructions say very clearly ‘viri’ -men. It seems to me that the cardinal was trying to have a bet each way and let Rome be blamed if they forbade the washing of women’s feet by one group and be blamed if they gave permission for the washing of women’s feet by another group and either way his hands were clean.

You are aware that the Cardinal is a Capuchin Franciscan Brother, right?

According to the Rule of St. Francis, any decision that cannot be made by his Major Superior has to be submitted to the Holy Father. His Major Superior cannot make decisions for the Archdiocese, because it does not fall under his jurisdiction. Therefore, if there is a request such as this, the Cardinal has to ask the Holy Father, unless the regulation in the liturgy is so air-tight that it does not allow for another answer, such as would be the case with changing the words of baptism or something like that.

This is one of those cases where the regulation is about discipline, not the efficacy of the sacrament. Therefore, there can be another answer. But it has to come from the appropriate authority.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[elts1956]

Did you see what I posted above that came from the Cardinal himself? Check out the full article on cardinalseansblog.org or on the above link.

It is very uncharitable and dangerous to presume to know that one of the holiest bishops and most well educated in Catholic theology and mysticial theology is going to sell out. Especially, when he has already called in experts in the field of Catholic bioethics as consultants before he hands down his verdict.

We’re speaking about a man who has been one of the Church’s fire fighters since the sexual abuse scandal broke out. He has rescued several dioceses by cleaning them up. He was also the Church’s frontline missionary to the poor, especially the immigrant poor.

He is a member of one of the most orthodox religious orders in the USA and his record is impeccable.

I for one am willing to stand for this man and put my head on the chopping block for him after living and working with him for many years.

He is a holy brother, prayerful, faithful to the Church and his order. He is also faithful to the needs of the poorest of the poor. He has doubled the number of seminarians in the Boston diocese and brought in four new Franciscan religious communities into his diocese to live among the poor. He sold the Archbishop’s mansion and gave the money to the diocese and lives in an apartment in a high risk neighborhood of Boston with several other Capuchin Brothers. The man doesn’t even own a car. His wardrobe consists of two habits and one suit. Finally, he is not a dummy. He is highly educated in matters of law and faith.

We have to be careful not to see or anticipate conspiracies every where.

Fraternally,

JR

Hi JR. I will check out Cardinal Sean’s site you gave above. Lowly lay person that I am, I just found it interesting he would need the opinion of a Catholic bioethics department to be able to say whether an action is consistent with Church teaching or not. Or perhaps this is backup for a final declaration???

As I said, I will be one of the first to apologize for my ranting when I see some action taken to protect the teachings of the Church.

There are too many Bishops burning the walls of the church down for me to not say anything. As you know from previous correspondence, I can be tolerant to a point, but beyond that point I get my knickers in a knot. :crying:

Since I know nothing about the man except what I don’t hear in the newspapers, I apologize. I wasn’t “accusing” him of anything as I don’t have proof one way or the other. Just questioning actions/non-actions which I am beginning to do with many clergy. My days of complete faith in MAN are gone. Peace.

 

[elts1956]

Fox noted statements from Centene that the joint venture would include abortions and said O’Malley "has given a guarantee that I don’t think he is capable of giving, given what they have said in public."

I posted the quote from Centene on Cardinal Sean’s blog and it my post was removed. I wonder if this is another ? case of Cardinal Sean trying to look good to orthodox Catholics while letting non orthodox Catholics do what they want to do.

One of the posters said that Cardinal Sean was very orthodox yet he petitioned Rome to allow women’s feet to be washed at Easter when the instructions say very clearly ‘viri’ -men. It seems to me that the cardinal was trying to have a bet each way and let Rome be blamed if they forbade the washing of women’s feet by one group and be blamed if they gave permission for the washing of women’s feet by another group and either way his hands were clean.

You sound as suspicious as I do. Shame on us, but when you hear so many negative stories about some of the Catholic hierarchy here in the US, you can’t help but wonder.

I understand from someone who knows him, he is a very holy and orthodox Catholic. I would like to know more about him.

By the way, please note my question mark after your word “again”. PM me with an explanation please. I don’t want to cause any more scandal than I already have. Thanks.

 

[JReducation]

Hi JR. I will check out Cardinal Sean’s site you gave above. Lowly lay person that I am, I just found it interesting he would need the opinion of a Catholic bioethics department to be able to say whether an action is consistent with Church teaching or not. Or perhaps this is backup for a final declaration???

As I said, I will be one of the first to apologize for my ranting when I see some action taken to protect the teachings of the Church.

There are too many Bishops burning the walls of the church down for me to not say anything. As you know from previous correspondence, I can be tolerant to a point, but beyond that point I get my knickers in a knot. :crying:

Since I know nothing about the man except what I don’t hear in the newspapers, I apologize. I wasn’t “accusing” him of anything as I don’t have proof one way or the other. Just questioning actions/non-actions which I am beginning to do with many clergy. My days of complete faith in MAN are gone. Peace.

The reason that he has called in the experts from the Catholic Center on Bioethics is because that is not his area of expertise. His area of expertise is Franciscan Theology and Mystical Theology of Portugal. He has a PhD in each of those. But Bioethics is a very specialized area of theology and philosophy. If you are not well trained in it, you call in the experts to tell you if the proposed agreement guarantees what the Church wants.

What this team will do is look at the Church’s requirements, then look at the proposed agreeement and make a judgement call as to whether or not the agreement is sufficiently within the parameters established by the Church or whether it needs some editing. If it needs some editing, they are the experts.

I think it is quite humble of a Cardinal to call in experts, rather than presume to know every branch of theology himself. That is never the casse with any bishop. No bishop ever knows every branch of theology,not even the pope. Our current pope is an expert in Franciscan and Augustinian theology, but he depends on others for other areas of theology.

He tells you this in his book on Jesus Christ. He used Schilebeecx paradigm, contemporary and classical exegetes and then put the pieces together from what they have to say to come up with his own version of Christology. Even after he does that, he says in his introduction that his Christology may have errors and that he welcomes those theologians who are experts in the field to give him feedback.

Popes and Cardinals who can admit that they are not experts in every area of theology are being very honest. Honesty is the first sign of humility.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[elts1956]

Fox noted statements from Centene that the joint venture would include abortions and said O’Malley "has given a guarantee that I don’t think he is capable of giving, given what they have said in public."

I posted the quote from Centene on Cardinal Sean’s blog and it my post was removed. I wonder if this is another case of Cardinal Sean trying to look good to orthodox Catholics while letting non orthodox Catholics do what they want to do.

One of the posters said that Cardinal Sean was very orthodox yet he petitioned Rome to allow women’s feet to be washed at Easter when the instructions say very clearly ‘viri’ -men. It seems to me that the cardinal was trying to have a bet each way and let Rome be blamed if they forbade the washing of women’s feet by one group and be blamed if they gave permission for the washing of women’s feet by another group and either way his hands were clean.

The reason that he has called in the experts from the Catholic Center on Bioethics is because that is not his area of expertise. His area of expertise is Franciscan Theology and Mystical Theology of Portugal. He has a PhD in each of those. But Bioethics is a very specialized area of theology and philosophy. If you are not well trained in it, you call in the experts to tell you if the proposed agreement guarantees what the Church wants.

What this team will do is look at the Church’s requirements, then look at the proposed agreeement and make a judgement call as to whether or not the agreement is sufficiently within the parameters established by the Church or whether it needs some editing. If it needs some editing, they are the experts.

I think it is quite humble of a Cardinal to call in experts, rather than presume to know every branch of theology himself. That is never the casse with any bishop. No bishop ever knows every branch of theology,not even the pope. Our current pope is an expert in Franciscan and Augustinian theology, but he depends on others for other areas of theology.

He tells you this in his book on Jesus Christ. He used Schilebeecx paradigm, contemporary and classical exegetes and then put the pieces together from what they have to say to come up with his own version of Christology. Even after he does that, he says in his introduction that his Christology may have errors and that he welcomes those theologians who are experts in the field to give him feedback.

Popes and Cardinals who can admit that they are not experts in every area of theology are being very honest. Honesty is the first sign of humility.

Fraternally,

JR

Hi again JR. I am not being humble and I am being dense. What is so difficult to see that it is wrong for an establishment to give referrals to abortion providers in return for government money?? I don’t really know the relationship of Caritas to the Boston Archdiocese, but was under the impression there is a link? If so, shouldn’t the Archdiocese cut off all links with Caritas? Thanks.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

When abortion first became legal decades ago, our saintly parish priest told us, if you give someone a dime to call an abortion clinic, or allow them to use your phone to call a clinic ,or give them a ride to an abortion clinic you are guilty of enabling them, and will be judge by God as such, and you may not receive communion

This is very true, because in the scenario the priest describes you would be sharing in the intention of the person seeking to obtain an abortion, when you give them a dime to make a phone call. (this story must be really old, if a phone call only cost a dime )

It would be different if you gave someone a dime for some other reason. For example, maybe you borrowed a dime from them previously, and they ask you to pay them back. Or, if the person is your employee and they ask for their pay, even if you know they will use it to make a phone call to the abortion clinic, you still have to pay them. Or if you work in a store and have to give someone change, even if you know they just bought something to get change to use the phone to call the clinic.

The difference is that in the priest’s example, he is talking about a person who shares the intention of the person getting the abortion. In moral theology this would be formal cooperation with evil, because you share the person’s intent.

(I don’t know how this applies to the Caritas situation, I’ve been reading more about it in other articles and it seems they’re doing more than just giving out a phone number to a consumer hotline. My earlier opinions were just based on the article linked to in the OP.)

 

[Corki]

One of the posters said that Cardinal Sean was very orthodox yet he petitioned Rome to allow women’s feet to be washed at Easter when the instructions say very clearly ‘viri’ -men. It seems to me that the cardinal was trying to have a bet each way and let Rome be blamed if they forbade the washing of women’s feet by one group and be blamed if they gave permission for the washing of women’s feet by another group and either way his hands were clean.

But this is a good sign. The Washing of the Feet (which happens on Holy Thursday, not Easter, BTW) and using only men is a discipline and could be dispensed by the Vatican. The Cardinal did the right thing to request it. Most of the bishops in the US have either allowed it or looked the other way and never bothered to ask permission to make a change. To me this shows that the Cardinal has a very orthodox understanding of where to draw the lines.

 

[JReducation]

Hi again JR. I am not being humble and I am being dense. What is so difficult to see that it is wrong for an establishment to give referrals to abortion providers in return for government money?? I don’t really know the relationship of Caritas to the Boston Archdiocese, but was under the impression there is a link? If so, shouldn’t the Archdiocese cut off all links with Caritas? Thanks.

The rules of moral theology and bioethics are very complex. They are based on thousands of years of Magisterial teaching, modern science, classical philosophical ethics and the scriptures. I know that we wish that we could give responses that were simple and quick to the cut, but that’s not how the Catholic Church works.

Especially now under the leadership of Pope Benedict XVI, he insists that every moral decree be examined by reason and philosophical ethics. He is right. Faith cannot exist divorced of philsophy and philosophy cannot guide the world without the truths of faith.

For the person in the pew, this can be frustrating. There was a time when all of this deliberation took place and the person in the pew did not know about it, because the means of communication were not very sophisticated. By the time the person in the pews got wind of what the Church wanted, the process was several years old. Today, with internet and other quick means of communication, we have information at our fingertips faster. Unfortunately, we are privy to the process too. This is frustrating, because it looks to many people as if this is new. The truth is that it is not new. What is new is the fact that we can now see the surgery, not just the final outcome.

We have to learn to accept that we live in a world of high speed communication and we’re going to get information before decisions are made and studies are completed. This is the case with the Caritas Health System and the bishops of different dioceses. They have to go through the process. But they can no longer go through it quietly and with patience while the rest of the world is looking over their shoulders rushing them to make a decision.

Let us be patient and pray that the scholars will reach the right conclusion.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[KathleenElsie]

But this is a good sign. The Washing of the Feet (which happens on Holy Thursday, not Easter, BTW) and using only men is a discipline and could be dispensed by the Vatican. The Cardinal did the right thing to request it. Most of the bishops in the US have either allowed it or looked the other way and never bothered to ask permission to make a change. To me this shows that the Cardinal has a very orthodox understanding of where to draw the lines.

I and many others have refused to go to the Holy Thursday services because they have allowed women’s feel to be washed. So even petitioning Rome for this IMHO sends a liberal feminist message.

 

[JReducation]

I and many others have refused to go to the Holy Thursday services because they have allowed women’s feel to be washed. So even petitioning Rome for this IMHO sends a liberal feminist message.

You you pass up one of the biggest holy days of the year, because of a political idea? How does this make sense?

Holy Thursday is the anniversay of the installation of the greatest sacrament of the Church.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Corki]

I and many others have refused to go to the Holy Thursday services because they have allowed women’s feet to be washed. So even petitioning Rome for this IMHO sends a liberal feminist message.

Maybe he was hoping for a “no” answer so that he could shut down the “if its not specifically forbidden, it must be ok” crowd. One can hope, right.

I don’t go to Holy Thursday Mass anymore either. I just got tired of explaining it to my kids.

 

[Benadam]

This is very dissapointing.

But I don’t think we should judge them. They faced a decision to get government money to provide medical care to the poor, but it came with the requirement that they refer for abortions.

 

[JReducation]

Neil_Anthony;4934384:

This is very dissapointing.

That kinda makes it look worse not better.

This is not the decision of the local bishops. This may have been the decision of the organization. As I posted above, the local bishops are still trying to decide if the agreement meets the criteria of the Church. They have experts working on this issue as we speak.

Let’s not jump to conclusions until the Church speaks.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[KathleenElsie]

You you pass up one of the biggest holy days of the year, because of a political idea? How does this make sense?

Holy Thursday is the anniversay of the installation of the greatest sacrament of the Church.

Fraternally,

JR

So do you think it is better to go to a Mass that is not done in accordance with the GIRM then to stay home or go to another parish were it is done properly?

It is still possible to go to a Mass or Liturgy and not have to be a participant (yes sitting in the pew is being a participant) in something being done against the GIRM.

 

[JReducation]

So do you think it is better to go to a Mass that is not done in accordance with the GIRM then to stay home or go to another parish were it is done properly?

It is still possible to go to a Mass or Liturgy and not have to be a participant (yes sitting in the pew is being a participant) in something being done against the GIRM.

Your post did not say anything about seeking an alternative parish. You said

Originally Posted by KathleenElsie
I and many others have refused to go to the Holy Thursday services because they have allowed women’s feet to be washed. So even petitioning Rome for this IMHO sends a liberal feminist message.

Let me reverse the question. Do you think it is better to boycott the Celebration of the Lord’s Last Supper, because of a rubric?

The washing of women’s feet does not invalidate or even make the liturgy illicit, because it is not an essential part of that liturgy. The commemoration is a commemoration of the Unniversal Church, both East and West. You deprive yourself from participating with the Universal Church in the commemoration of the institution of the Eucharist and the Lord’s Last Supper.

Though it is not a holy day of obligation, it is the opening liturgical act of the Easter Triduum, which is the highest and most solemn feast in Christendom.

Our spirituality must be guided by reason as well as rules and faith. When rules alone determine how we participate or do not participate in the full body of Christ, then we have a danger that we must think about very seriously. Let us keep in mind, that even though an action may be a breach of General Instructions in the Roman Missal, these instructions do not overrule the sacredness of the event that is being celebrated,most especially the opening of the Easter Triduum.

Even if there is a breach in the GIRM, the participation in the Triduum is of higher moral and spiritual value than is the failure to comply with the GIRM.

I am not justifying the failure to comply. I am presenting the importance of partcipating in the opening of the Easter Triduum. Nothing is more important that participating in this, the Church’s highest celebration of the year.

Granted, the Easter Vigil is the apex of the Triduum. But if we follow the logic of boycotting the liturgy, because there is a breach in following the GIRM, can you imagine boycotting the mass of Easter because the parish does not comply with one of the rules in the GIRM which has no effect on the validity or licaity of the mass itself, but only on one ritual within the mass?

We should not allow ourselves to miss the opportunity to celebrate the most sublime mysteries of the Church because someone fails to comply with a rule regarding something that is accidental to the liturgy, not essential.

There is the difference, accidence and essence. The essence to the liturgy of the Lord’s Supper is the Eucharist, not the washing of the feet. The washing of the feet is part of the historical narrative that leads up to the institution of the Eucharist.

In addition, some bishops have permission to use women. They have asked for it from Pope Benedict and he has granted it. We do not always know if this is the case. The Pope can overrule the GIRM. Afterall, he has to approve it.

I’ll give you a simple example of the GIRM and the Pope. The Good Friday homily to the Papal household is always delivered by a Capuchin Franciscan Friar. The Capuchins have been the official preachers for the Papal household for several hundred years.

The Rule of St. Francis says that all the friars are brothers, even the ordained friars. That none of the friars should distinguish themelves from the others, with one exception, during the celebration of the mass when the ordained brother wears vestments. Other than that, they do not wear any distinguishing clothing or use distinguishing titles such as Father. They use Fra (short for Frater), Friar or Brother.

The GIRM says that a priest or deacon must wear an alb and stole when preaching at the Good Friday Liturgy, even though it is not a mass. The Capuchin Franciscan Friars have been dispensed from this regulation since before the GIRM existed. They have always preached wearing nothing but the brothers’ habit and presenting themselves to the congregation as Fra. The congregation does not know if the friar is a priest, deacon or lay brother. Every Pope has dispensed with this obligation to wear the alb and stole out of respect fro the Franciscan tradition of brotherhood, because the Good Friday Liturgy is not a mass. Therefore, it is not covered in the Rule of St. Francis.

The Pope would have to change the Rule of St. Francis; give the friars an indult not to observe this part of the Rule and wear an alb and stole, or give them an indult not to wear the alb and stole and remain in compliance with the Rule. In any case, he has to give an indult of some kind. For hundreds of years they have chosen to dispense with the requirement of the alb and stole on Good Friday for the Capuchin Franciscan Friars in the Vatican.

Would you boycott that service if you had the opportunity to attend, because the preacher is dressed as a brother and you can’t tell if he is ordained or not? The Pope does not boycott it and he insists that the entire Papal household attend and has visitors present for it as well.

The point I’m making with this example is that the Instructions in the GIRM are of two kinds, the essential and the accidental. The washing of feet is not in the same category as ommiting the Gospel or changing the words of consecration.

Pray and think about it.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[elts1956]

The rules of moral theology and bioethics are very complex. They are based on thousands of years of Magisterial teaching, modern science, classical philosophical ethics and the scriptures. I know that we wish that we could give responses that were simple and quick to the cut, but that’s not how the Catholic Church works.

Especially now under the leadership of Pope Benedict XVI, he insists that every moral decree be examined by reason and philosophical ethics. He is right. Faith cannot exist divorced of philsophy and philosophy cannot guide the world without the truths of faith.

For the person in the pew, this can be frustrating. There was a time when all of this deliberation took place and the person in the pew did not know about it, because the means of communication were not very sophisticated. By the time the person in the pews got wind of what the Church wanted, the process was several years old. Today, with internet and other quick means of communication, we have information at our fingertips faster. Unfortunately, we are privy to the process too. This is frustrating, because it looks to many people as if this is new. The truth is that it is not new. What is new is the fact that we can now see the surgery, not just the final outcome.

We have to learn to accept that we live in a world of high speed communication and we’re going to get information before decisions are made and studies are completed. This is the case with the Caritas Health System and the bishops of different dioceses. They have to go through the process. But they can no longer go through it quietly and with patience while the rest of the world is looking over their shoulders rushing them to make a decision.

Let us be patient and pray that the scholars will reach the right conclusion.

Fraternally,

JR

Life is too complex. When did things get from simple to Peace.

 

[JReducation]

Life is too complex. When did things get from simple to Peace.

Only in heaven my friend, only in heaven.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[yinekka]

No matter what spin people try to put on it, bottom line, if Caritas Health System via their new partners is referring people for abortions the cardinal should say loud and clear that this it is wrong for a Catholic agency to have anything to do with referring people for abortions either directly or indirectly. I don’t need a bioethics committee to tell me this is wrong why should the cardinal?

 

[JReducation]

No matter what spin people try to put on it, bottom line, if Caritas Health System via their new partners is referring people for abortions the cardinal should say loud and clear that this it is wrong for a Catholic agency to have anything to do with referring people for abortions either directly or indirectly. I don’t need a bioethics committee to tell me this is wrong why should the cardinal?

The Cardinal does not claim to be an expert in moral theology or bioethics. He applies to their expertise to make sure that whatever he says will be consistent with what the Church teaches at all levels of moral theology and bioethics.

You may be lucky enough to know more about moral theology and bioethics than he does. He is a simple Capuchin Brother who is trained in Portuguese Mysticism and Franciscan Theology. The two are very far from moral theology and bioethics.

The Sacred Congregation on the clergy requires that bishops not act outside their areas of expertise without subscribing to the proper experts to help them. Many who have done so, have created a bigger mess, even though they acted with the best intentions.

He’s acting according to the rules of the Sacred Congregation.

Fraternally,

JR