Carm.org claims Catholics are not Christian

[Lucretius]

• When Jesus instituted the supper, He had not yet been crucified. How then was the Eucharist His crucified body and blood?
• How is it possible for the Eucharist to be the actualy body and blood of Christ if–by definition–a human body is only in one place at one time as Jesus’ body was in the incarnation, especially when you realize that Jesus is still a man (1 Tim. 2:5, Col. 2:9).

For number one, the Last Supper wasn’t completed until Christ drank the cup of sour wine on the Cross. Christ himself says that the cup is His blood, given for the forgiveness of sins. If the Cross was the Sacrifice for the Forgiveness of sins as well, as those at Carm believe, then it follows that what was in the Cup is the same Blood as is poured out on the Cross.

As for the second one, a human body is not necessarily in one place, if I cut it in pieces

Furthermore, the Resurrected body is a spiritual body, as St. Paul calls it, and can do things such as teloport, walk through walls, etc. Bilocation is also a miracle found with the Saints, which further supports this possibility.

The best answer for both though is that Christ said so, so to denounce these teachings because you, in your human ignorance, cannot rationalize it (“this is a hard teaching, who can accept it?”) is denying Christ, and accepting human reason as an idol.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[boomerang]

My problem with this kind of response (not that I don’t agree, because I do) is that there are things we can deduce using human reasoning. So why is it I can logically conclude God exists absent any faith or scriptural evidence, but not how he can give us his flesh before being crucified or how his body can continue to be in multiple places at the same time?

Of course, atheists argue that you cannot logically determine the existence of God using any means, but that is another issue. I know what you mean. It would be great if we could show with logic and reasoning all that God does. Unfortunately, God’s ways are above us. He knows things we will never know. We don’t know how He does what He does. When we are faced with a mystery, and the Eucharist is a mystery, along with the Incarnation, we just must believe and take it on face value. There are some things we just can’t completely know. We don’t know how He can be in multiple places at the same time. We can’t understand eternity as God does. How does He hear and answer millions of prayers at the same time?

These are things beyond our understanding for now. CARM asks questions about subjects that are beyond our understanding, and then disparages Catholics for literally believing what Christ says. And to that we say, “…But blessed are those who have not seen, but believe!” Can we completely understand the Trinity? Does anyone know exactly who all the players in the Apocalypse are? Some things are beyond us for now. But we believe anyway. We believe in the Real Presence, because our Lord said it is so.

We don’t need to bend over backwards to explain the unexplainable. You’ll notice they do not demand an explanation of the Incarnation. But that’s only because they believe it. The Incarnation (in a virgin, no less) is not rationally explainable. No one can explain it with logic. That’s why we use terms like “miracle” and “mystery.” What they don’t believe, they unreasonably demand an explanation, and that in itself is not reasonable. You can’t pick and choose which “crazy” thing you are going to believe, and which “crazy” thing you don’t.

 

[Tomdstone]

As for the second one, a human body is not necessarily in one place, if I cut it in pieces

I don’t think that applies to a living human body.

 

[Tomdstone]

Of course, atheists argue that you cannot logically determine the existence of God using any means, but that is another issue…

Many Christians say the same thing.

 

[ffg]

There are a couple questions I can’t answer, and I haven’t been able to find the answers anywhere.

If someone here knows the answer, please let me know! Here they are:

• When Jesus instituted the supper, He had not yet been crucified. How then was the Eucharist His crucified body and blood?
• How is it possible for the Eucharist to be the actualy body and blood of Christ if–by definition–a human body is only in one place at one time as Jesus’ body was in the incarnation, especially when you realize that Jesus is still a man (1 Tim. 2:5, Col. 2:9).

Nice to see a couple things worth discussing. Funny that they will be answered here, copied there, then probably deleted.

Assuming what I’m reading here about the site is true.

I would want to post a thread there asking if Jesus’ teaching on loving neighbor is to extend to the Internet.

We all error and many times hide behind the screen, but how that guy from there seems to think Christianity is some click or gang that he can buddy up with while hating others, sure seems odd.

 

[SalusaSecondus]

They claim because we venerate Mary and pray to her and saints that we undermine Christ. I have heard protestant groups say we aren’t Christian many times for reasons like this, we are blasted for idolatry in our churches and pagan rituals etc. To many Protestant groups the Catholic church is just as Christian as Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses… How do we respond to this?

I regularly post over there, and I think that most Catholics are Christians, what a silly claim.

 

[jmcrae]

There are a couple questions I can’t answer, and I haven’t been able to find the answers anywhere.

If someone here knows the answer, please let me know! Here they are:

• When Jesus instituted the supper, He had not yet been crucified. How then was the Eucharist His crucified body and blood?

The Crucifixion is an event that took place both in time and in Eternity.

Eternity is a word that is sometimes used to mean “an infinitely long time” - however, that’s not what Catholics mean by that word - rather, Eternity is a state of being that is outside of time (and therefore, accessible at all times, including before the material event took place) - thus, Christ’s Crucifixion was available to Mary to enable her to be conceived without sin due to His sacrifice for her, and also enabled Him to be able to be holding up His own glorified Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity at the Last Supper.

• How is it possible for the Eucharist to be the actual body and blood of Christ if–by definition–a human body is only in one place at one time as Jesus’ body was in the incarnation, especially when you realize that Jesus is still a man (1 Tim. 2:5, Col. 2:9).

Jesus answers this very question Himself, in the first section of John 6, when He allows a meal of bread and fish to exist in five thousand different places all in the same instant.

Although it is not ordinarily possible for a single body to occupy several places at the same time, Jesus has suspended the laws of physics for the purpose of making the Eucharist available to us, so that we may obey His commandment (also found in John 6) to eat His body and drink His blood, so as to be saved for eternal life.

We also see other bodies bi-locating - most famously, Saint Padre Pio on many occasions.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

I would want to post a thread there asking if Jesus’ teaching on loving neighbor is to extend to the Internet.

I don’t think so. After all, He never mentions the internet in any of his teachings on forgiveness and love of neighbor. Therefore it must be okay to be rude to people.

(Sarcasm!)

 

[Starwarsfan2]

I don’t really listen to carm.com , they attack anyone from us Lutherans , to the Roman church , which contrary to their claims, both are true churches.

 

[steido01]

The Crucifixion is an event that took place both in time and in Eternity.

Eternity is a word that is sometimes used to mean “an infinitely long time” - however, that’s not what Catholics mean by that word - rather, Eternity is a state of being that is outside of time (and therefore, accessible at all times, including before the material event took place) - thus, Christ’s Crucifixion was available to Mary to enable her to be conceived without sin due to His sacrifice for her, and also enabled Him to be able to be holding up His own glorified Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity at the Last Supper.

This explanation is magnificent. If you haven’t already, please save this for later use.

All Mariology ought to truly be Christology, and that’s something Catholics have, generally, not done an adequate job of communicating to Protestants.

 

[zz912]

If someone here knows the answer, please let me know! Here they are:

• When Jesus instituted the supper, He had not yet been crucified. How then was the Eucharist His crucified body and blood?
• How is it possible for the Eucharist to be the actualy body and blood of Christ if–by definition–a human body is only in one place at one time as Jesus’ body was in the incarnation, especially when you realize that Jesus is still a man (1 Tim. 2:5, Col. 2:9).

A human body can’t resurrect from the dead. A human body can’t walk through walls. A human body can’t levitate into the clouds. A human body can’t walk on water.

And yet the people at CARM believe ALL these things. They ONLY question the ability of Jesus to do something when it contradicts their personal theology.

And the first question is just silly. Ask them how those who lived before Jesus were saved. Were they saved without Jesus? (They will answer “absolutely not!”) So the follow up to their answer is to ask why they think Jesus can apply His salvation to those who lived before Him, but He CAN’T make His resurrected Body appear in His hands at the Last Supper.

 

[adf417]

All Mariology ought to truly be Christology, and that’s something Catholics have, generally, not done an adequate job of communicating to Protestants.

Agreed! :yup:

 

[PJM]

=jmcrae;13209230]The Crucifixion is an event that took place both in time and in Eternity.

Eternity is a word that is sometimes used to mean “an infinitely long time” - however, that’s not what Catholics mean by that word - rather, Eternity is a state of being that is outside of time (and therefore, accessible at all times, including before the material event took place) - thus, Christ’s Crucifixion was available to Mary to enable her to be conceived without sin due to His sacrifice for her, and also enabled Him to be able to be holding up His own glorified Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity at the Last Supper.

Jesus answers this very question Himself, in the first section of John 6, when He allows a meal of bread and fish to exist in five thousand different places all in the same instant.

Although it is not ordinarily possible for a single body to occupy several places at the same time, Jesus has suspended the laws of physics for the purpose of making the Eucharist available to us, so that we may obey His commandment (also found in John 6) to eat His body and drink His blood, so as to be saved for eternal life.

We also see other bodies bi-locating - most famously, Saint Padre Pio on many occasions.

Very nicely done:thumbsup:Thank you!

In fewer words: “Time” is an invention by and for humanity; for God who “Knows ALL things”; everything is PRESENT TIME

God Bless you,

Patrick [PJM]

 

[Peter_J]

By ignoring it.

I’m not too familiar with the particular website in question (I’ve been avoiding it for years) but generally speaking, what you said is what I always tell people.

The thing is, it’s difficult to convince people – excepting cases where they are already convinced that they ought to ignore something, of course.

 

[benjohnson]

The thing is, it’s difficult to convince people – excepting cases where they are already convinced that they ought to ignore something, of course.

I visited CARM and then next day I had toe-fungus, uncontrollable sobbing, and an IRS audit.

 

[jmcrae]

I visited CARM and then next day I had toe-fungus, uncontrollable sobbing, and an IRS audit.

Me, too!

 

[Michael68]

Carm.org is just wrong!!! ChristianChat.com calls Catholicism heresy and they are wrong. Imo, it is a waste of time to visit these and similar “Christian” websites

 

[JustaServant]

I visited CARM and then next day I had toe-fungus, uncontrollable sobbing, and an IRS audit.

You need to clean my screen now.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

Carm.org is just wrong!!! ChristianChat.com calls Catholicism heresy and they are wrong. Imo, it is a waste of time to visit these and similar “Christian” websites

I wouldn’t call it a waste of time. It’s important to know what non-Catholics say about our Church so we can be prepared to defend it if we encounter those arguments. It might be a waste of time to linger and attempt to convert anyone there, but it’s always good to get a different perspective.

In my own quest for truth, I learned more about the Catholic Church by studying other religions and the objections others had towards the Church. It forced me to ask questions I might not have asked. We cannot be afraid of dialogue.

 

[Michael68]

I wouldn’t call it a waste of time. It’s important to know what non-Catholics say about our Church so we can be prepared to defend it if we encounter those arguments. It might be a waste of time to linger and attempt to convert anyone there, but it’s always good to get a different perspective.

In my own quest for truth, I learned more about the Catholic Church by studying other rseligions and the objections others had towards the Church. It forced me to ask questions I might not have asked. We cannot be afraid of dialogue.

Don’t you get enough non Catholics here? I suffered the abuse from ChristianChat.com and was eventually banned for Catholic heresy! Imagine that! Good luck if you want to visit these sites. The stuff they say about us is horrible!