Carmelite Mysticism, Raja Yoga, Buddhist Contemplation

[Marybeloved]

Micorhizea:
Hello, Micorhizea- I seem to have offended you. I certainly did not mean to do that.

No, I have not read Bernadette Roberts-Precisely for the same reasons that I cautioned others against it. I have read discussions/debate between her and others about her claims and experiences and about her works and claims between her supporters and critics. I really don’t need much convincing that I should stay away from a modern writer/mystic after they claim that their spiritual experiences have lead them directly into heresy and apostasy. Denying that God consists of three distinct persons is definitely Apostasy from Christianity, and claiming that you are yourself God and have ceased to exist as a distinct individual, is definitely against Catholic teaching. Certainly any modern mystic who claims to have discovered a whole new stage of spirituality beyond and unknown to any saint in the 2,000 year History of the church- That is much more than a red flag for me- It says- RUN!-----FAST!!!

Peace. Did not mean to offend.

 

[Micorhizea]

Hello, Micorhizea- I seem to have offended you. I certainly did not mean to do that.

No, I have not read Bernadette Roberts-Precisely for the same reasons that I cautioned others against it. I have read discussions/debate between her and others about her claims and experiences and about her works and claims between her supporters and critics. I really don’t need much convincing that I should stay away from a modern writer/mystic after they claim that their spiritual experiences have lead them directly into heresy and apostasy. Denying that God consists of three distinct persons is definitely Apostasy from Christianity, and claiming that you are yourself God and have ceased to exist as a distinct individual, is definitely against Catholic teaching. Certainly any modern mystic who claims to have discovered a whole new stage of spirituality beyond and unknown to any saint in the 2,000 year History of the church- That is much more than a red flag for me- It says- RUN!-----FAST!!!

Peace. Did not mean to offend.

No offense taken. I was just surprised by the apparent vehemence of your postings. I would like to have been there for those debates. My experience with such things over the last four+ decades is that such folks as might interview Ms. Roberts may not quite have the arsenal of experience to either ask the right questions, or to have the tools with which to comprehend her answers on the level they are intended. I do see why, superficially, she might put some Catholics aback. But a deeper survey of the literature, including the titles you kindly and usefully included, plus many more from our faith, tend, from ,y decades of encounter with such things, strongly support her in the more esoteric reaches of Catholicism. that fraction has been sadly neglected in some quarters, and I am sorry that you appear to be a victim of that.

However, please be advised that I would not by any means advise reading BR to just anyone. You might note that my response was specifically tailored to the OP’s condition and background. So it is I who perhaps ought to be apologizing to you, A PM about the matter might have been more appropriate in this case.

 

[Marybeloved]

I recently ordered Divine Intimacy, so I’m excited to use that daily along with liturgy of the hours.

Those are great! Keep on, my friend.

I have experiences with the Holy Spirit daily, so I don’t really understand what you mean Marybeloved. I’m going through one of the darkest periods of my life: family estrangement, discerning religious life, picking a major, overwhelmed by past sins, my only father figure in life(a once local priest) leaving the parish, etc.

I’m sorry to inform you my friend. If you do everything properly (continue to pray, seek God, try to be good) at some point- Darkness WILL come. But what you don’t see is that this is good news! The saints tell us that without this, we would remain babies in spirituality forever! No. A time will come when we’ve drank enough milk at the breast and need to be set on the floor to stumble a few, and begin to chew on some meat.

I really hope you don’t go 50 years without a spiritual experience,

You’ve got that right! I’m no Mother Teresa! :nope:

that would be terrible! I feel like when I haven’t experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit multiple times a day, I’m in dryness of prayer, so maybe I just misunderstand you?

This is one of the reasons that darkness comes. God romances us in the beginning, giving us immense spiritual delights to lure as from the false delights that the world offers. But then at some point we become too attached to these consolations of God. We start seeking them, thinking that we are seeking God. We pray because it’s so wonderful to our spiritual sense, we go to church and do good, only because it’s so sweet and so easy- But we don’t realize this! Very soon, these very gifts of God have become a new idol for us, replacing the former idols of sin and the world, unknown to us. St Teresa puts it as “Seeking the consolations of God, rather than the God of consolations”.

God loves us and desires much more for us- He intervenes, by withdrawing these very gifts. In doing so, he’s putting us in a position where we have to seek and be with him and pray, only because we want to- not because we get something sweet out of it.

I really think Buddhism and Hinduism are a bunch of ****, but I wanted to see what others thought. Of course I’d rather be a ordinary Catholic than the Dalai Lama or Nicht Naht Han, but I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that, regardless of the fact the world portrays the Eastern Religions as mystical, they come no where close to deeper catholic spirituality, using the Carmelites as an example.

Right on!

Thanks for spending the time laying that all out MaryBeloved, very informative. Where are you drawing the information for the three stages of interior contemplation? I’d love to read up on that more. I’m only aware of the seven mansion explanation.

Since the earliest History of the church, the Christian mystics have always divided the spiritual life roughly into three stages. St.John of the Cross, in the middle ages, gave the most systematic description of it.(Both he and St.Teresa of Avila founded the reformed Carmelites and were great friends and contemporaries, and both are doctors of Prayer in the church).

If you go to my second post where I gave you a list of works to read, the book “Three Ages of the interior life” is all about these three ways/stages. The link I gave there will take you right to that volume, which is a work of 2,000 years worth of condensed teaching and wisdom of the saints. The three ways are:
a) The Purgative way (Beginners),
b) Illuminative Way (Proficients),
c) Unitive Way (The Perfect))

Contemplation starts with the 2nd stage (around St. Teresa’s 4th mansions) and keeps on increasing till the Unitive Stage where a radical transformation of the Soul occurs. The three stages, per St. John of the Cross, are separated by 2 bridges called the passive dark nights. One of the Senses, another of the Spirit.

So it’s
-Purgative way followed by the passive night of the senses
-Illuminative way, which ends with the passive night of the Spirit
-lastly Unitive way

… Then Death, Then Beatific Vision (Heaven).

You can read a good summary of the stages in these articles:
ourladyswarriors.org/saints/3ways.htm
carmelnet.org/larkin/larkin092.pdf
ewtn.com/padrepio/mystic/mystical.htm

See this beautiful Article by Mother Angelica on Dryness:
copiosa.org/aridity/prayer_dryness.htm

 

[heresiarch]

Whoa. Marybeloved!!! “Three Ages of the interior life,” may just be the exact book I have been looking for since conversion. I’m so excited to start reading into it. I’ve only skimmed the collected works of St. Teresa of Avila’s and St. John of Cross’s material. I’ve only been a Catholic 3 years this Easter Vigil, but I remember the priest talking about Purgative, Illuminative, and Unitive, but was never sure where he was getting that information exactly, since I never saw it outlined very clearly in the works of the above, although I could see into it parts of what he was saying.

I’ve stumbled so much in the past 3 years it’s pitiful, and it was worse before conversion. I am scared of things getting worse in my life, that sounds terrible. I hope it doesn’t. The consolations are amazing though. I never received anything near this ecstacy from any other source. I want more and more, but have you ever been embarassed about what is happening to you at mass? I get it so powerfully at one local church during communion, it makes me not even want to go there and receive, since I feel exposed in front of everyone. It’s a very humiliating feeling. I can’t express it adequately in words presently.

I’m so happy I created an account on this site. “Jesus Christ The Bearer of the Water of Life” and “The Three ages of the Interior Life,” look like the best books I’ve been exposed to in quite some time. Thank you MaryBeloved and CopticChristian immensely. I really do appreciate you taking the time to comment and bring up those two things particularly.

 

[1voice]

A lot of Catholic spirituality isn’t near as focused on contemplation or interior understanding as Raja Yoga or Shamantha, Vipissana meditations. Only Carmelite mysticism I’ve found so far. That’s why I’m wondering if any others from Hindu, Buddhist backgrounds have noticed this as well?

This little book changed my life forever. I found it at the same point in my life that you are now.
I will one day smile and say … thank you so much … to Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection. If people simply read and did what this man describes … the entire world would be a very different place.

gutenberg.org/ebooks/5657

If you do what he did. You will experience what he experienced.

It was startling.

 

[CopticChristian]

This little book changed my life forever. I found it at the same point in my life that you are now.
I will one day smile and say … thank you so much … to Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection. If people simply read and did what this man describes … the entire world would be a very different place.

gutenberg.org/ebooks/5657

If you do what he did. You will experience what he experienced.

It was startling.

A book that changed my life is an oldy but goody “Abandonment to Divine Providence”…a good read when you feel sad.

 

[Marybeloved]

A book that changed my life is an oldy but goody “Abandonment to Divine Providence”…a good read when you feel sad.

The book that changed mine is “Introduction to the devout Life” by St. Francis de Sales. Nothing better than this can get a green soul on the road of the interior life- I’m convinced!

 

[CopticChristian]

The book that changed mine is “Introduction to the devout Life” by St. Francis de Sales. Nothing better than this can get a green soul on the road of the interior life- I’m convinced!

Did you read it once or 26 times?

 

[heresiarch]

Thanks all of you for sharing! I’ve had countless books change my life, but liturgy of the hours appears to be the best yet(only thing is all the religious pray it, and since I have a pride issue that wants to be different and stand out from the crowd, it makes me feel kinda like a sheeple, in the bad sense, though I am just a sheep, but when I actually say LOTH out loud it provides consolations very easily, so I wont give it up I hope). 1voice, here is a quote that pertains to your daughter and this whole conversation, that I found in the book recommended by Coptic Christian.

"Many people are convinced that there is no harm in ‘borrowing’ from the wisdom of the East, but the example of Transcendental Meditation ™ should make Christians cautious about the prospect of committing themselves unknowingly to another religion (in this case, Hinduism), despite what TM’s promoters claim about its religious neutrality. There is no problem with learning how to meditate, but the object or content of the exercise clearly determines whether it relates to the God revealed by Jesus Christ, to some other revelation, or simply to the hidden depths of the self. "

 

[Marybeloved]

Did you read it once or 26 times?

Haha! Don’t remember…Let’s just say 4. I have seen the Lord of the Rings 11 times, though…Does that count?

 

[CopticChristian]

Thanks all of you for sharing! I’ve had countless books change my life, but liturgy of the hours appears to be the best yet(only thing is all the religious pray it, and since I have a pride issue that wants to be different and stand out from the crowd, it makes me feel kinda like a sheeple, in the bad sense, though I am just a sheep, but when I actually say LOTH out loud it provides consolations very easily, so I wont give it up I hope). 1voice, here is a quote that pertains to your daughter and this whole conversation, that I found in the book recommended by Coptic Christian.

"Many people are convinced that there is no harm in ‘borrowing’ from the wisdom of the East, but the example of Transcendental Meditation ™ should make Christians cautious about the prospect of committing themselves unknowingly to another religion (in this case, Hinduism), despite what TM’s promoters claim about its religious neutrality. There is no problem with learning how to meditate, but the object or content of the exercise clearly determines whether it relates to the God revealed by Jesus Christ, to some other revelation, or simply to the hidden depths of the self. "

Scott Hahn routinely references the liturgy of the hours. Imagine what impact that would have on all Christians if they prayed the liturgy of the hours. Kind of reminds you of praying without ceasing.

Without going into detail. TM is Hinduism in disguise. As you progress you are ultimately involved in offering something to a Hindu god. If you are interested I will direct you. Why bother I say.

 

[heresiarch]

I thought Lord of the Rings was boring. 11 times? You must be a fanatic. I would rather watch Richard Wagner’s Ring Cycle 26 times than read that book again(and I’m not even a fan of Wagner)!

Liturgy of the hours is defined as the prayer of the church in dogma, so it’s pretty powerful. No other prayer devotion has that distinction. Do any of you pray the rosary? I really dislike it since I can’t relax and focus as deeply twiddling beads in my fingers.

I’m not interested in Hindu stuff. I just hope divine intimacy is awesome or I’ll be disappointed. I’ve spent so much money on books it’s ridiculous and 99% I don’t even keep. =(

 

[Marybeloved]

I thought Lord of the Rings was boring. 11 times? You must be a fanatic. I would rather watch Richard Wagner’s Ring Cycle 26 times than read that book again(and I’m not even a fan of Wagner)!

Yes- fanatic is exactly what I was when the Lord of the rings movies came out, lol! I tell you, five years ago, I could recite each line of almost every character in sequence (And I didn’t even deliberately memorize it, too!). Been a while though- years. And yes, when I say 11 times, I mean all 10 hours of it, 11 times . Was like that with the Matrix, too! Perhaps not 11 times, but many, many times did I see the Three movies, together!

Liturgy of the hours is defined as the prayer of the church in dogma, so it’s pretty powerful. No other prayer devotion has that distinction. Do any of you pray the rosary? I really dislike it since I can’t relax and focus as deeply twiddling beads in my fingers.

I always found the Rosary difficult at the beginning too. But the thing is, it takes training. Why? You are doing two things at once. You are reciting vocal prayers to the Father, Our Lady, The Blessed Trinity and Christ- Since you are praying, your mind wants to follow the meaning of the prayer and not just recite it mechanically. Problem of course is that you are really supposed to be fixing your mind on the mysteries! You’re supposed to be meditating on the mystery of that decade you’re reciting, but at the same time you are saying an Our Father or Hail Mary at once. It forces you to do mental gymnastics.

But after a while, you know what happens? The vocal prayers fall into the background easily, naturally, rythmically, becoming like background chant/music and your mind is fully present to the mystery. At this time, the Rosary really becomes a school of the Gospel. You are constantly gaining new lights/understandings into the mysteries. And it goes on simplifying too. So if you used to think of Christ with thorns and how horrible it must have been, and what a big sacrifice it was and then resolve not to take offense at small humiliations in your own life etc etc- After sometime, you look at that mystery and just get a more intuitive sense of the humiliation and humility and just focus on that and find that you love Christ more personally and the change (resolution) is so much more natural that it does not seem so much like a resolution any more.

But it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, though. The most important thing is that you are doing mental prayer, through the Rosary or some other means.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes- fanatic is exactly what I was when the Lord of the rings movies came out, lol! I tell you, five years ago, I could recite each line of almost every character in sequence (And I didn’t even deliberately memorize it, too!). Been a while though- years. And yes, when I say 11 times, I mean all 10 hours of it, 11 times . Was like that with the Matrix, too! Perhaps not 11 times, but many, many times did I see the Three movies, together!
I always found the Rosary difficult at the beginning too. But the thing is, it takes training. Why? You are doing two things at once. You are reciting vocal prayers to the Father, Our Lady, The Blessed Trinity and Christ- Since you are praying, your mind wants to follow the meaning of the prayer and not just recite it mechanically. Problem of course is that you are really supposed to be fixing your mind on the mysteries! You’re supposed to be meditating on the mystery of that decade you’re reciting, but at the same time you are saying an Our Father or Hail Mary at once. It forces you to do mental gymnastics.

But after a while, you know what happens? The vocal prayers fall into the background easily, naturally, rythmically, becoming like background chant/music and your mind is fully present to the mystery. At this time, the Rosary really becomes a school of the Gospel. You are constantly gaining new lights/understandings into the mysteries. And it goes on simplifying too. So if you used to think of Christ with thorns and how horrible it must have been, and what a big sacrifice it was and then resolve not to take offense at small humiliations in your own life etc etc- After sometime, you look at that mystery and just get a more intuitive sense of the humiliation and humility and just focus on that and find that you love Christ more personally and the change (resolution) is so much more natural that it does not seem so much like a resolution any more.

But it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, though. The most important thing is that you are doing mental prayer, through the Rosary or some other means.

Marybeloved, every now and then I come across a poster on this forum that I find extraordinary. You are one of those. Thank you for sharing your faith and knowledge here.

As for the rosary, I could not agree with you more. After a time, the verbal prayers become background music to a wonderful dance with our Lord. I am always amazed at the depth of the mysteries and the endless variation of penetrating insights to be gained concerning the life of Christ. Truly, a gift from heaven.

God bless.

 

[Marybeloved]

Marybeloved, every now and then I come across a poster on this forum that I find extraordinary. You are one of those. Thank you for sharing your faith and knowledge here.

As for the rosary, I could not agree with you more. After a time, the verbal prayers become background music to a wonderful dance with our Lord. I am always amazed at the depth of the mysteries and the endless variation of penetrating insights to be gained concerning the life of Christ. Truly, a gift from heaven.

God bless.

Thank you for your very, very kind words, SteveVH. You made me go . The Rosary is indeed a treasure. I’m so glad you gain so much from it.

Peace.

 

[Marybeloved]

Marybeloved, every now and then I come across a poster on this forum that I find extraordinary. You are one of those. Thank you for sharing your faith and knowledge here.

As for the rosary, I could not agree with you more. After a time, the verbal prayers become background music to a wonderful dance with our Lord. I am always amazed at the depth of the mysteries and the endless variation of penetrating insights to be gained concerning the life of Christ. Truly, a gift from heaven.

God bless.

Thank you for your very, very kind words, SteveVH. You made me go . The Rosary is indeed a treasure from Heaven. I’m so glad you gain so much from it.

Peace.

 

[heresiarch]

The rosary isn’t difficult, but too easy. I really don’t see why it’s important to people. I’d rather just repeat the “Our Father” mentally and think about Jesus life than say “Hail Mary’s” over and over.

I only really can’t relax more, because to pray the rosary you have to be focused on which bead your on and constantly vocalizing, instead of being completely absorbed in the mental prayer.

 

[CatholicFireman]

The rosary isn’t difficult, but too easy. I really don’t see why it’s important to people. I’d rather just repeat the “Our Father” mentally and think about Jesus life than say “Hail Mary’s” over and over.

I only really can’t relax more, because to pray the rosary you have to be focused on which bead your on and constantly vocalizing, instead of being completely absorbed in the mental prayer.

The rosary is not about repeating over and over the Hail Mary or focusing on which bead you are on. You are missing the point.

Your post unfairly cheapens a beautiful devotion. If you choose not to recite the rosary, that’s fine, but giving those reasons is a sure way to start a heated debate and lead to this thread being closed.

Sorry. Going off topic. Moving on.

 

[heresiarch]

It’s about the mysteries, the magic indulgences of the confraternity, the secrets, and the wonderful promises!!! All I’m saying is that why not just remember the mysteries mentally, recite the creed mentally, pray the our father mentally? Jesus taught us to pray the Our Father, not the Hail Mary, so I like that better, so I guess I’m biased.

Hindus and Buddhist prayed with beads long before Christ was born, and I stand by my reasons. Why does it matter if a thread gets banned? Do I get banned too?

 

[Marybeloved]

The rosary isn’t difficult, but too easy. I really don’t see why it’s important to people. I’d rather just repeat the “Our Father” mentally and think about Jesus life than say “Hail Mary’s” over and over.

I only really can’t relax more, because to pray the rosary you have to be focused on which bead your on and constantly vocalizing, instead of being completely absorbed in the mental prayer.

I never use beads, nor do I recite the Our Fathers and Hail Mary’s out loud- unless you are doing it as two people or a group, I don’t see why anyone would do it out loud. What you’re describing there, that you’d “rather do” is exactly what we do in the Rosary- We mentally say the Our father and Hail Marys while we think about Jesus’ life!

I don’t know why you think you have to focus on the beads- The beads are there precisely so you don’t have to focus on counting prayers and so take away from the meditation. So that your fingers just move and your mind remains on the mystery. The mysteries are mainly key events in the life of Christ, and a few in the life of Mary. The prayers are called vocal because they do not constitute “mental prayer” per catholic understanding of the term- not because you have to “vocalize” them out loud.

Plus the Hail Mary is in the scripture. It seems the real issue is that you don’t really understand the Church’s doctrine on the Blessed Virgin, the communion of Saints, (including prayers to saints), and indulgences- not so much the Rosary per-se. But as I said before, you don’t have to do it if it’s not your cup of tea. Do your mental prayer the way you find most profitable for you.