Carmelites - please respond

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Hello, I know that many on this forum are Carmelites.

I am reading part of the “Ascent of Mount Carmel” by Saint John of the Cross.
I was wondering, it is possible to go though the “dark night of the senses” while living in the world, or does this take a Carmelite? (Lay or Religious)

I am currently thinking about joing Lay Carmel, but I am not sure it I have a real vocation or not. I am currently in my first year of University(three year course).

Please answer, and provide links to the Third Order of Carmelites in England.

Thanks
From Vanessa
 
Hi Vanessa. I am not a Carmelite (yet)… but hope, like you… to one day join the Third Order.

I will be interested to see the answers given to your question about the “dark night of the senses”. I have not read St. John of the Cross… but would like to. Unfortunately, I don’t get much time for reading… right now. 😦

Is the “dark night of the senses” the same as the “dark night of the soul”? Because, I believe that this can happen with anyone… not just the consecrated. God bless. I hope you receive some great answers.
 
Hello, I know that many on this forum are Carmelites.

I am reading part of the “Ascent of Mount Carmel” by Saint John of the Cross.
I was wondering, it is possible to go though the “dark night of the senses” while living in the world, or does this take a Carmelite? (Lay or Religious)

I am currently thinking about joing Lay Carmel, but I am not sure it I have a real vocation or not. I am currently in my first year of University(three year course).

Please answer, and provide links to the Third Order of Carmelites in England.

Thanks
From Vanessa
Hello, Vanessa - It is not necessary that one by a Carmelite (Lay or Religious of either of the Carmelite Orders) to enter into the dark night of the senses. Fidelity to prayer, to the sacramental life, and the practice of the virtues are what are needed, no matter in what state of life an individual may be.

Here are two links for Carmelites in the U.K.; the first is for the Discalced Carmelite Friars (O.C.D.), and the second is for the Carmelites of the Ancient Observance (O. Carm.), both of which have secular (or lay) members):

ocd.pcn.net/ocd/f4_inghil.htm

carmelite.org/
 
Thanks for your respones…

When you say practise of the virtues, what do you mean?

From Vanessa
 
Johns spiritual counsels were addressed specifically to aid those for whom he provided spiritual direction, namely Carmelite religious and priests, but his description of the spiritual journey applies to everyone, but requires competent spiritual direction to understand where we are in the journey and when we are transitioning to a new phase. Membership in a lay association, secular order, or third order is a wonderful way for lay people to benefit from such spiritual direction in the Carmelite, Franciscan, Benedictine, Dominican or other tradition. No, the dark night is not the property of the Carmelites.
 
If I feel that I am a beginner in the spiritual life, is this a bad thing?
How long will I be a beginner? How can I detach myself from constatly buying and keeping new holy books and cards?

From Vanessa
 
the very short book, the DArk Night, which is actually the sequel to Ascent, has, in explaining the first line of the poem, the first chapter for beginners such as yourself. These are people who have already detached from sin, experienced initial conversion and intentionally committed to the spiritual journey. He answers briefly and to the point these very questions you are asking in that chapter.

since you are attracted to Carmelite spirituality, but good for anyone, are 3 short books from ICS
Words of Wisdom for our World-precautions and counsels of St.John of the Cross

Temptation and Discernment by Segundo Galilea

Carmelite Spirituality in the Teresian tradition

all from ICS pubs Washington DC
2131 Lincoln Rd.NE 20002
800-832-8489
 
Thanks for your responses…

At least, I think that I am in the spiritual stage of beginner.
I would really like to find a spiritual director and talk to them about this.
However, is it recommended that the director is a camelite? Otherwise will they understand what I am talking about?

From Vanessa
 
Hi Vanessa,

I have been a lay Carmelite for almost six years. In my case I knew this was my vocation before I even entered. Of the ten or so people who were with me during the course of my aspirancy only four are still in the Order. As with any vocation people need to check things out to be sure whether or not it is really for them.

You voice a concern as to whether this may be for you:
I am currently thinking about joing Lay Carmel, but I am not sure it I have a real vocation or not.
The only way to know for sure is to enter first. You will be admitted to aspirancy which is a period of discernment which lasts at least one year but can drag on for over two years in some cases, during which time it should become apparent to anyone whether it is something to which they really want to belong.

St Augustine once defined Theology as faith seeking understanding. The same can be said, in most cases, of discerning whether one has a vocation as a secular Carmelite: enter first, ask questions later.

I don’t know about the other Third Orders like the Dominicans and Franciscans, but with the Carmelites everyone is fully a member of the Order, whether priest, nun or layperson. No one is less a Carmelite for being in the Third Order. That’s why we aren’t usually encouraged to refer to ourselves as “Third Order Carmelites” as this may have the connotation of being like second-class citizens, which we decidedly are not. But then the term “secular” has negative connotations too, though “lay” may have a more positive or at least neutral meaning. So I prefer simply to call myself a Carmelite and leave it at that, though if asked to elaborate I do.

If you are accepted into aspirancy, and you and the Council of your particular chapter should come to the conclusion that you indeed have a vocation you will then enter into Formation as a novice, just like the “real” Carmelites (tongue in cheek here), which may take up to another couple of years, after which you will make your first profession for a period of at least three years before making your final profession. All told you are looking at a minimum of five years before final profession, though as many as ten is not uncommon. Patience is obviously a requirement. I have joked that it takes longer sometimes to become a lay Carmelite than to become a diocesan priest.

As for being a beginner, we are all beginners, no matter how far along we are, or think we are. I believe it was Thomas Merton who said that. And he of course was right: before the living and eternal God how can we be anything but beginners, both in time and in eternity? And thank God for that. Things could get pretty boring otherwise.

Come on in. The water is fine.
 
Hello, I know that many on this forum are Carmelites.

I am reading part of the “Ascent of Mount Carmel” by Saint John of the Cross.
I was wondering, it is possible to go though the “dark night of the senses” while living in the world, or does this take a Carmelite? (Lay or Religious)

I am currently thinking about joining Lay Carmel, but I am not sure it I have a real vocation or not. I am currently in my first year of University(three year course).

Please answer, and provide links to the Third Order of Carmelites in England.

The journey St. John of the Cross describes, is the spiritual journey we all take, if we are committed to following the spiritual life.

The dark night of sense, is when we begin to detach ourselves from the things in our life, which are not part of this spiritual journey. When we do, we must detach from the things that please the appetites of worldly desires, rather than the desire to be a disciple of Jesus. It takes grace prayer, to get through this and can take a very long time or a very short time, and is dependent on your level of commitment.

You don’t need to be a lay Carmelite to go through this, for every person seeking to live a spiritual life, goes through it. What Carmel does, is help you through it. Through the love of the members of the community, who have the experience and knowledge, they will share with you, will help you go through it.

In Christ Jesus
Jim
 
Thanks you Gabrielis, and JimR - OCDS, for your replies.
There is a OCRS contact in Keningston, that I will contact to join them.

However, could you provide a link to the Divine Office, - so that I can start praying in this way.

From Vanessa
 
hi, vanessa,

you may want to pick up two books, by fr. thomas dubay,
“the fire within”, a study of john of the cross and teresa of avila,this book also covers the “dark nights”.
“seeking spiritual direction”, this is also a very informative book in the carmelite tradition.

God bless,

johnco
 
Thank for all your responses!

I am starting to feel that the Camelite tradition/order would be very helpful in my spiritual life as it appears very solid and based on the Gospels.

However, i am not sure whether or not I have a vocation.

From Vanessa
 
search this forum under Carmelite for the threads by those members who are Carmelite associates or tertiaries (neither of which is accurate for describing lay Carmelites so I would rather you read what they themselves have to say about their association). Some of our best contributors to this forum are Carmelites.
 
Vanessa,

FWIW, when I started suspecting that I had a vocation to become a Discalced Carmelite, I checked out what would be expected from me by getting a hold of the St. Albert of Jerusalem’s Rule and started practicing each daily obligation over a course of 2 or 3 years: daily prayer was first, followed by devotion to Mary and daily Mass.

When I realized that these obligations became habit and true spiritual food, that they had become part of my practice of the faith, I figured that it was time to discern my Carmelite vocation by knocking at a community’s door, which I described here. I’m still in discernment, but I’m loving it through and through. I’ve found my spiritual brothers and sisters at last, blessed be God forever.

Give it some time, keep on reading the Carmelite saints and God will let you know if you have a vocation to be a Carmelite when your heart burns for love of the Carmelite charisms.

:blessyou:
 
Thank you for all your responses.

What are the Carmelite charisms?
 
Thank you for all your responses.

What are the Carmelite charisms?
The specific Carmelite charism is the tending toward contemplative prayer. Being a gift, contemplative prayer is not something we can achieve on our own, but we can - and should - desire this profound relationship with God. The Order has the charge of forming its members to be witnesses to God’s desire to draw man to this intimate knowledge of Him.
 
Is it possible for a third - order carmelite, to also be devoted to Divine Mercy, as a private devotion?
 
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