Carter and the US Military

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gilliam:
At this rate Carter will go down as one of the worse ex-Presidents of all time.
It will be difficult though for him to exceed his own Presidential term. I believe historians will put him quite near the “bottom”.
 
I was in GTMO, these “politicians” have no idea how comfortable the detainees have things.
 
At this rate Carter will go down as one of the worse ex-Presidents of all time.
I think Carter is the best ex-prez of all time. He has been tireless in his message of peace and in his service of the poor.
 
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Snicker:
I think Carter is the best ex-prez of all time. He has been tireless in his message of peace and in his service of the poor.
As a president he will be rated among the worst. As an ex-president, he is among the best for what you said. But he is a little off base on the GTMO issue.
 
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Snicker:
I think Carter is the best ex-prez of all time. He has been tireless in his message of peace and in his service of the poor.
If only he would have continued doing as you said … :rolleyes:
 
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mjdonnelly:
As a president he will be rated among the worst. As an ex-president, he is among the best for what you said. But he is a little off base on the GTMO issue.
Everything that Carter said about GTMO and the Iraq is true. While it’s true that living conditions may be tolerable for the prisoners, it can’t be denied that there have been many cases of torture. This should be unacceptable for all Americans, especially Christians.
 
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Snicker:
Everything that Carter said about GTMO and the Iraq is true. While it’s true that living conditions may be tolerable for the prisoners, it can’t be denied that there have been many cases of torture. This should be unacceptable for all Americans, especially Christians.
Unless you were at Gitmo or Iraq, (and there are two people on this forum who have been), you’re only hearing one side of the story. You have no clue what you are talking about and neither does Jimmy Carter. In Gitmo right now, our people are subject to abuse from prisoners to which they can not respond. It can be denied that there have been many cases of torture because it’s simply not true.

Carter is still bitter that the American people saw through the facade that he presented in the seventies. He projected his own “malaise” onto the average American who was trying to make a living and got called out for it. His peace at any price foreign policy was as disastrous as Chamberlain’s.
 
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Nichevo:
Unless you were at Gitmo or Iraq, (and there are two people on this forum who have been), you’re only hearing one side of the story. You have no clue what you are talking about and neither does Jimmy Carter. In Gitmo right now, our people are subject to abuse from prisoners to which they can not respond. It can be denied that there have been many cases of torture because it’s simply not true.

Carter is still bitter that the American people saw through the facade that he presented in the seventies. He projected his own “malaise” onto the average American who was trying to make a living and got called out for it. His peace at any price foreign policy was as disastrous as Chamberlain’s.
While I have never been to gitmo I have read extensively about this issue. From just about ever political perspective there is. It’s undeniable that systematic torture has happened at Gitmo…undeniable. But conservatives just can’t accept this little bit of history. Instead of supporting punishing those who were behind the policy, conservatives just deny it every happened and call those who accept facts and say it did, liberals…what an evil word that has become.
 
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Snicker:
While I have never been to gitmo I have read extensively about this issue. From just about ever political perspective there is. It’s undeniable that systematic torture has happened at Gitmo…undeniable. But conservatives just can’t accept this little bit of history. Instead of supporting punishing those who were behind the policy, conservatives just deny it every happened and call those who accept facts and say it did, liberals…what an evil word that has become.
Please furnish links or other info to support your claim that there has been systematic torture at Gitmo. I have read of isolated incidents but not as you state.

I notice in your profile that your interests are “terrorizing conservatives”. IMO, that is a very poor choice of words.
 
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geezerbob:
Please furnish links or other info to support your claim that there has been systematic torture at Gitmo. I have read of isolated incidents but not as you state.

I notice in your profile that your interests are “terrorizing conservatives”. IMO, that is a very poor choice of words.
Most of the articles I’ve read have come from liberal, progressive, and alternative media sources. Since I know that conservatives won’t even consider news worthy of reading unless it comes from FOX or Rush, I won’t waste my time finding the articles.

As far as my terrorizing conservatives thing…it’s just my attempt at being funny.
 
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Snicker:
While I have never been to gitmo I have read extensively about this issue. From just about ever political perspective there is. It’s undeniable that systematic torture has happened at Gitmo…undeniable.
So we are all on the same sheet of music, please define “torture”. Be specific with examples of acts you would consider such.
 
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Stu:
So we are all on the same sheet of music, please define “torture”. Be specific with examples of acts you would consider such.
I like this definition:

Torture is the infliction of severe physical or psychological pain as an expression of cruelty, a means of intimidation, deterent or punishment, or as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions. Sometimes torture is practiced even when it appears to have little or no functional purpose beyond the gratification of the torturer or because it has become the norm within the context.
 
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Snicker:
Most of the articles I’ve read have come from liberal, progressive, and alternative media sources. Since I know that conservatives won’t even consider news worthy of reading unless it comes from FOX or Rush, I won’t waste my time finding the articles.
Kinda rushing to judgement there. Most of us simply seek the truth and Fox does seem to present it a little better than the other news organizations. Rush, IMO, is an opinionated egotistical windbag and I do not listen to him. However, I would like to find some evidence (not opinion) of systematic abuse at Gitmo. Gitmo only, please, because there seems to have been some serious problems in this regard elsewhere.
 
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geezerbob:
Kinda rushing to judgement there. Most of us simply seek the truth and Fox does seem to present it a little better than the other news organizations. Rush, IMO, is an opinionated egotistical windbag and I do not listen to him. However, I would like to find some evidence (not opinion) of systematic abuse at Gitmo. Gitmo only, please, because there seems to have been some serious problems in this regard elsewhere.
US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan - UN

forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html
 
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gilliam:
This is someone saying the US acknowledges torture. It isn’t the US acknoleging torture. Also it doesn’t say how often it happened, if it was isolated incidences that were then delt with, or if it was systematic. In fact, this heresay doesn’t really say anything.
I’m sure when the report comes out you claim it to be a forgery.
 
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Snicker:
I’m sure when the report comes out you claim it to be a forgery.
I hope not. I know I get opinionated at times, but I keep trying to be honest. Call me on it if I do. 😉

I know there have been individual cases of abuse. These cases have been dealt with. We do a much better job of it than most militaries by the way.
 
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Snicker:
US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan - UN
forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html
Same incident, different source:
political-news.org/breaking/12501/us-acknowledges-torture-at-guantanamo-and-iraq-afghanistan-un-source.html

From there:
“They haven’t avoided anything in their answers, whether concerning prisoners in Iraq, in Afghanistan or Guantanamo, and other accusations of mistreatment and of torture,” the Committee member said. “They said it was a question of isolated cases, that there was nothing systematic and that the guilty were in the process of being punished.”
The US report said that those involved were low-ranking members of the military and that their acts were not approved by their superiors, the member added.
I don’t think anyone would deny that such cases happen but I do not believe for a minute they are sanctioned and neither does the UN.

The definition you gave for torture is below.
Torture is the infliction of severe physical or psychological pain as an expression of cruelty, a means of intimidation, deterent or punishment, or as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions. Sometimes torture is practiced even when it appears to have little or no functional purpose beyond the gratification of the torturer or because it has become the norm within the context.
It isn’t bad but still reasonable people could disagree on what “severe” means. We would obviously agree on some things being outright torture as well as some things just being uncomfortable. As always, its the “gray area” that comes into play.

However, here is my somewhat educated view on what happens in GITMO. I have never been there but one of my Sailors was sent there TAD for six months to work with the prisoners and I myself have had ample training in being a prisoner of war include extended “field work”.

Do I believe the prisoners are subjected to things to make them uncomfortable? Absolutely. We have all heard about the loud music, temperature extremes, sleep deprivation and such. Not torture by any means but an attempt to throw off the individual psychologically and give the captors the advantage. I will tell you such tactics are effective even if you know they are coming but do not harm you as there is only a limited window of opportunity to exploit them.

Use of outright torture though is not an effective means of gathering information. Can it be used to coerce people into making statements or taking certain actions for propagande purposes? Yes. But it has been proven to be ineffective at gaining useful intelligence as the victim will say anything to make it stop. This point was hammered home multiple times by my instructors (who were DOD interrogators). Instead, there are other more subtle ways of getting people to open up. The most effective German interrogator of WWII used nothing but “friendship” and good treatment to get information. That is a fact.

Those assigned to GITMO cannot all be perfect and given the ground rules there it can be difficult to maintain your composure. My Sailor told me that she personally had blood, urine, feces, mucus and semen all thrown at her by the prisoners at different times. Even knowing that you are not supposed to lash out against someone because you are in a position of authority honestly ask yourself what your reaction would be if someone threw semen on you? It’s human nature, you would want to clean his clock.
 
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