Casual dating or exclusive relationship?

[redwatch]

Hi friends,
It’s good to be here! I’m hoping to get a little bit of advice on a relationship.

I’ve been dating an extremely close friend of mine for about 3.5 months now. I’ve known him for almost 5 years–we clicked instantly, and just kept missing each other with timing. I was into someone else, then he was, then he was discerning seminary and so on and so forth. Finally we bit the bullet and decided to start dating when he figured out that he wasn’t called to be a priest. We had a relationship for a year, broke up because we hit a wall–neither of us were ready to be engaged, and we didn’t know how to grow together emotionally and spiritually. We were apart for 5 months almost to the day: he showed up at my door and asked if we could try again.

We’ve been going out on a date about once a week since then. Sometimes it’ll be more casual, other times more on the expensive side. He plans and pays for most of them on his own insistence (we split the really expensive ones), and all of them, with the exception of a few, have been outside of our apartments (we had one that was watching a movie where we went a little too far–literally nothing by today’s standards, but we were both uncomfortable with the places our minds went and how we were using each other for pleasure instead of expressing affection). They’ve all been great, and I feel like we’ve been laying a really good, strong foundation for ourselves–we’ve been communicating on a much deeper level, we’re much more public about interacting with each other (we had a weird thing last time where we wouldn’t talk to each other much at public things because our friends got so, so involved and opinionated about our relationship), and we’re just having a lot of fun with each other.

But one of the conditions of our second chance was that we take things slow and start “as far back as possible”. That meant that we started with “friendship dates”, no physical affection, and exploring other people as well. I was fully on board with that–I would have been worried if he’d wanted to jump straight into a relationship again, and I wanted to make sure he wasn’t coming back just because he was missing a girlfriend rather than me.

So it’s been fun–we’ve been doing a lot more intentional and varied dates and talking and getting to know the inner workings of each other’s minds. But there are a few things nagging at me. Mostly it all stems from the fact that he’s still dating other people–I’ve decided not to, since there are very few other guys that I’m interested in and the ones that I have gone on dates with walk away when they find out I won’t have sex unless there’s two rings and a sacrament involved. He’s very open and honest about it–he’s asked out two other girls in the time we’ve been dating, and one of them turned him down while he just had one date with the other that was fine but not great–and I appreciate that because it helps me know what page he’s on, and why he’s sort of keeping the brakes on with me. I’m also thinking that, if he does decide to date me exclusively, I’ll be glad to know that he’s explored and actually picked me instead of settling for me. I have no animosity or jealousy toward these women, but it does make me sad: I know that I want to pursue a relationship that might end in marriage with him, and it stings to feel like he doesn’t want that too.I feel like we’ve reached a plateau, and either we take the next step forward or we stop.

A lot of people that I’ve asked about this go, “Well, why don’t you just talk to him about it?” 1) I’m scared of rejection. I am utterly terrified of hearing, again, that he doesn’t want me. 2) My spiritual director, who is also his, told me not to bring up exclusivity; in his ideal world, everyone will just date casually and then get engaged after a year to one of their casual dates. He thinks we should just continue with what we’re doing for the next seven months, and I’m sure he’s been telling the guy I’m seeing the exact same thing. We’re young, he wants to do this right, and so I think he’s taking our spiritual director’s advice very much to heart. Is this idea common, though? I feel like, at some point, you have to know that both of you are more invested in this relationship than in any others before you trust each other enough with the more vulnerable and intimate conversations that would lead to engagement. Please tell me I’m not crazy for wanting more of a commitment from this guy (or tell me that I am but give me a good reason), and tell me what I should do about it. I keep feeling like I should bring it up, but then I hear my priest’s voice in my head going, “Don’t bring up exclusivity with a guy; just date a bunch of other guys and protect your heart.”

Sorry for the novel! Probably encroaching on the community’s generosity and hospitality a little bit

 

[Lucky7]

I would follow the spiritual director’s advice.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Hi friends,
It’s good to be here! I’m hoping to get a little bit of advice on a relationship…Sorry for the novel! Probably encroaching on the community’s generosity and hospitality a little bit

Hi! I actually read your novel. Ha ha! Okay, I sort of speed read one part of it. But I think I got it.

Here’s my view: You need to be direct and blunt with your spouse at all times. You must tell your spouse what you want, need, fear, suspect, worry about, all that.

Okay, this dude isn’t your spouse. But the purpose of dating is to test out someone for possible espousal. Dating, for adults (anyone beyond high school age) is for ONLY ONE thing: it is one big long JOB INTERVIEW. You are looking to “hire” someone to make and raise babies with you, and grow old with you. That’s it.

Okay, sure, for most Americans, dating is for sex, fun, companionship, social status, and so on. But those Americans are (sorry for this) STUPID.

So many people end marrying someone who disappoints them, and the whole thing ends up like the Titanic.

So, quit being afraid of rejection. Rather, be afraid of marrying someone you can’t trust, and be afraid of ending up an (sorry for this) an Old Maid (the clock IS ticking! the clock shows NO mercy!)

If you are afraid to tell this guy you want him to stop chasing other women, then, in my opinion (sorry for this), you lack the requisite moral courage to be a good spouse and to get a good spouse. “Courage” (or fortitude) is one of the Cardinal Virtues taught by the Church.

Read a biography of St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Teresa of Avila, or St. Francis, and see how good, glorious and necessary it is for us Catholics to be BOLD, and not wimpy!

Or look to the example of Mother Angelica of EWTN. She once chewed out Cardinal Mahoney (of Los Angeles) on live TV. He was very offended, and took steps in the episcopacy to punish her. But no one remembers Cardinal Mahoney with gigantic love and affection. By contrast, millions thank God every day for what Mother Angelica did. She was a poor young nun with no education who started a Catholic satellite network. What CHUTZPAH! What audacity! I think God is using THIS situation to teach you to be a BRAVE woman. You are planning to undertake the GREAT & HARD WORK of being a MOTHER and WIFE. That is not for the feint of heart! So, now is good time to saying what you want to say all the time to people who are close to you (not bosses, co-workers, for whom holding your tongue is usually necessary).

But, perhaps I am wrong. I’m just an anonymous guy on the Internet. So, follow your conscience.

Offered humbly and respectfully for the Glory of God and the Salvation of Souls.

Yours, Barto.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Oh, one more thing:

Beware of indecisive men!

Beware of men who don’t know what they want!

Beware of men who drift from one thing to the next, never making a commitment.

Such men make horrible priests and horrible husbands!

And never suppose you can change an indecisive man into a decisive man. You cannot.

 

[underacloud]

It depends on what is meant by “dating”.

One can go on casual dates with many different people and get to know them.

When dating is more than this, I definitely prefer exclusivity. When any kissing is involved, it definitely should be exclusive IMO.

The difficulty is the advice of your spiritual director. While I don’t like his advice, if you have a spiritual director it is good to take their advice very seriously, even to the point of submitting to it when you don’t neccessarily agree. You have to contrast this with your own feelings in this matter, and the fact that if this man is to be your spouse eventually, you need a relationship based on honesty. Given how you feel, I think in the interest of honesty you should probbaly raise your concerns with him.

 

[Joe_5859]

Welcome to CAF!

I can understand your feelings. I think “casual dating” can be a good or bad depending on what you mean by “dating.” If you mean just getting to know a bunch of different people, doing things, forging friendships, but never really calling it “dating”, then I think it’s a good thing. If you’re talking about going on expensive, guy-pays-for-it, dinner dates, then the idea of dating more than one person seems a bit odd to me.

I’m also generally in favor of open, honest communication. I’ve been married for a number of years, though, so I have somewhat forgotten how this works out in dating. When dating, it’s not always best to lay everything out there too soon. But it sounds like you and this guy have a degree of history which would make it hard for me to imagine not talking to him about this.

All that said, I would second the advice to listen to your spiritual director. My opinion based on your singular post doesn’t compare to the advice of the guy who is giving both of you spiritual direction. He’s obviously in a better position to give you more meaningful advice than I am.

If you are still uneasy about this whole situation (and it seems to me that you are based on the fact that you’re here asking about it), I would encourage you to bring it up to your spiritual director again. Try to articulate why this makes you uneasy and what you hope to gain by bringing it up with your boyfriend. Doing so would be good practice for bringing it up with your boyfriend anyway.

Gid bless!

 

[runningdude]

Hi friends,
It’s good to be here! I’m hoping to get a little bit of advice on a relationship.

I’ve been dating an extremely close friend of mine for about 3.5 months now. I’ve known him for almost 5 years–we clicked instantly, and just kept missing each other with timing. I was into someone else, then he was, then he was discerning seminary and so on and so forth. Finally we bit the bullet and decided to start dating when he figured out that he wasn’t called to be a priest. We had a relationship for a year, broke up because we hit a wall–neither of us were ready to be engaged, and we didn’t know how to grow together emotionally and spiritually. We were apart for 5 months almost to the day: he showed up at my door and asked if we could try again.

We’ve been going out on a date about once a week since then. Sometimes it’ll be more casual, other times more on the expensive side. He plans and pays for most of them on his own insistence (we split the really expensive ones), and all of them, with the exception of a few, have been outside of our apartments (we had one that was watching a movie where we went a little too far–literally nothing by today’s standards, but we were both uncomfortable with the places our minds went and how we were using each other for pleasure instead of expressing affection). They’ve all been great, and I feel like we’ve been laying a really good, strong foundation for ourselves–we’ve been communicating on a much deeper level, we’re much more public about interacting with each other (we had a weird thing last time where we wouldn’t talk to each other much at public things because our friends got so, so involved and opinionated about our relationship), and we’re just having a lot of fun with each other.

But one of the conditions of our second chance was that we take things slow and start “as far back as possible”. That meant that we started with “friendship dates”, no physical affection, and exploring other people as well. I was fully on board with that–I would have been worried if he’d wanted to jump straight into a relationship again, and I wanted to make sure he wasn’t coming back just because he was missing a girlfriend rather than me.

So it’s been fun–we’ve been doing a lot more intentional and varied dates and talking and getting to know the inner workings of each other’s minds. But there are a few things nagging at me. Mostly it all stems from the fact that he’s still dating other people–I’ve decided not to, since there are very few other guys that I’m interested in and the ones that I have gone on dates with walk away when they find out I won’t have sex unless there’s two rings and a sacrament involved.

Interruption here! This is a good thing. Dating is about a discerning marriage - don’t waste time with those who don’t want sex. A few first dates that lead nowhere is nothing to be ashamed of.

He’s very open and honest about it–he’s asked out two other girls in the time we’ve been dating, and one of them turned him down while he just had one date with the other that was fine but not great–and I appreciate that because it helps me know what page he’s on, and why he’s sort of keeping the brakes on with me. I’m also thinking that, if he does decide to date me exclusively, I’ll be glad to know that he’s explored and actually picked me instead of settling for me. I have no animosity or jealousy toward these women, but it does make me sad: I know that I want to pursue a relationship that might end in marriage with him, and it stings to feel like he doesn’t want that too.I feel like we’ve reached a plateau, and either we take the next step forward or we stop.

A lot of people that I’ve asked about this go, “Well, why don’t you just talk to him about it?” 1) I’m scared of rejection. I am utterly terrified of hearing, again, that he doesn’t want me.

I went to a presentation recently, and one aspect of dating that hangs a lot of people up is fear of rejection. Your goal should be to find someone to marry; it may not be this guy. Give him permission, in your mind, for him to walk away if he’s not interested. Know that you have other options, then approach him as though you have nothing to loose!

1. My spiritual director, who is also his, told me not to bring up exclusivity; in his ideal world, everyone will just date casually and then get engaged after a year to one of their casual dates. He thinks we should just continue with what we’re doing for the next seven months, and I’m sure he’s been telling the guy I’m seeing the exact same thing. We’re young, he wants to do this right, and so I think he’s taking our spiritual director’s advice very much to heart. Is this idea common, though? I feel like, at some point, you have to know that both of you are more invested in this relationship than in any others before you trust each other enough with the more vulnerable and intimate conversations that would lead to engagement. Please tell me I’m not crazy for wanting more of a commitment from this guy (or tell me that I am but give me a good reason), and tell me what I should do about it. I keep feeling like I should bring it up, but then I hear my priest’s voice in my head going, “Don’t bring up exclusivity with a guy; just date a bunch of other guys and protect your heart.”

Sorry for the novel! Probably encroaching on the community’s generosity and hospitality a little bit

 

[EnglishTeacher]

No, you are not crazy for wanting more of a committment from this man. What the spiritual director suggested (seven more months of casual dating in which your friend continues to date other women) is not realistic or healthy, and clearly it is not “protecting your heart.” Seven months is way too long–your friend doesn’t need that much time to decide which woman he wants to be exclusive with, and it only allows him to avoid committment for an unnecessarily long period. In order for a relationship to move forward, two people do have to become vulnerable at some point, and open themselves up to love (as well as, unfortunately, the possibility of being hurt).

I think the other problem with allowing him to continue dating other women for seven months when you want more of a committment, is that this arrangement is not respectful toward you. It basically allows him to use you (although I am sure that is not his intent) and “try out” several women at once while keeping you on the side until he makes up his mind.

You do need to talk to him and be honest with him. Be calm, pleasant, and kind, but be firm. Tell him (in your own own words, of course) that the casual, non-exclusive dating was a good basis on which to begin building a friendship, but that you no longer desire to date a man who continues to see other women. Let him know that you value his friendship and would like it to becomes something more; but that if he is not to that point, you will have to move on without him because you are no longer comfortable with the current arrangement.

If it is you he wants, he will realize it and come after you. And if it is not, then you will have to move on without him. Hard as that seems now, it is better to find out sooner than later; and it is better than hanging around waiting for a man who can’t make up his mind. You deserve better than that.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Welcome to CAF!
I can understand your feelings. I think “casual dating” can be a good or bad depending on what you mean by “dating.” If you mean just getting to know a bunch of different people, doing things, forging friendships, but never really calling it “dating”, then I think it’s a good thing. If you’re talking about going on expensive, guy-pays-for-it, dinner dates, then the idea of dating more than one person seems a bit odd to me.

I’m also generally in favor of open, honest communication. I’ve been married for a number of years, though, so I have somewhat forgotten how this works out in dating. When dating, it’s not always best to lay everything out there too soon. But it sounds like you and this guy have a degree of history which would make it hard for me to imagine not talking to him about this.

I agree with this advice from Joe. Is it possible that your spiritual director is unaware of what kind of dating that you and your friend have been doing? It might be that you need to explain the situation more fully to him.

 

[redwatch]

Wow, thank you, everyone! I’m so blessed to have so much advice.

Barto: You are quite right. There’s a reason Mary Magdalene is my Confirmation Saint. However, I don’t believe he’s indecisive in quite the way you mean: he doesn’t waffle back and forth about decisions, but rather takes time to discern what he feels is right and then sticks by it–he prefers not to be “hasty”, as the Ents say. He is also not a philanderer; I trust him when he says I’m not on the back burner, and it’s not like he’s asking out girls left and right, despite having quite the train of women following him around. For one of our recent dates, he figured out my favorite kind of steak (NY strip) and cooked an entire gourmet meal in 30 degree weather before a play, and for another one shelled out about $90, all told–I don’t believe he’s doing that (nor could he afford to) with any other girls. And, just as an aside, I love it, but I’ve never asked him to do it–all of these have been his ideas (I’d be just as happy with takeout and a bad movie!). But I will talk to him this week about it, just to make sure that we’re both heading in the same direction and that we want the same thing. I’m just worried that I’m concealing my true motives for exclusivity, even from myself: insecurity or jealousy, rather than love and a true earnestness for pursuit of this relationship.

Underacloud: Thank you. I do sometimes have disagreements with my spiritual director about his advice, and his only request of me is that I prayerfully consider it before I accept or reject it. I’ll try and discuss it more with him when I see him next. I’ll also try and talk to the boy about what comes up in spiritual direction as well; the last time we dated, he was the only one in spiritual direction, but now that we’re both in it with the same director things are getting a little interesting–my director has definitely brought up things from our relationship that I know I never told him.

Runningdude: Regarding your first point, I absolutely agree. Not ashamed, just mildly saddened. I got tremendous respect from several of the guys for sticking to my moral code, even though they didn’t ascribe to it, and even had a good conversation with one about Catholic teachings on sex. Somehow, I impressed him so much with my explanation of the beauty and power of sex that he asked if I was a born-again virgin, and said he’d think about trying abstinence in the future–little victories by the grace of God. As far as your second point, I will keep that in mind when I talk to him. It’s a very good perspective.

EnglishTeacher: I appreciate your advice very much. As I mentioned to Barto, I don’t think that he’s keeping me on the side, but rather making sure that he doesn’t have doubts if and when he jumps in with both feet. That being said, I think it is time that we do that, and I will very much keep your points in mind. It is entirely possible that our spiritual director is unclear as far as what kind of dating we’re doing, or that we’re unclear on what he means/approves of.

Again, thanks so much, everyone! I will talk to him this week and just clarify where we are and where we’re going, and how I’d like to get there. I’m uncomfortable issuing an ultimatum at this point, since this will be our first conversation about it and I’d rather have it be a discussion, but I will not be afraid to do so if I need to.

 

[underacloud]

Underacloud: Thank you. I do sometimes have disagreements with my spiritual director about his advice, and his only request of me is that I prayerfully consider it before I accept or reject it. I’ll try and discuss it more with him when I see him next. I’ll also try and talk to the boy about what comes up in spiritual direction as well; the last time we dated, he was the only one in spiritual direction, but now that we’re both in it with the same director things are getting a little interesting–my director has definitely brought up things from our relationship that I know I never told him.

I definitely do not want to undermine your spiritual director, but this is a concern. Things shared by you should not get back to him, and vice versa. Perhaps it is not prudent for the two of you to be receiving direction from the same priest through this? Perhaps you should ask your spiritual director about this point blank next time you meet?

 

[redwatch]

I’m sorry, I should probably clarify. It’s only been extremely minor and innocuous things, not the inner musings of our souls or our blackest sins or anything; for example, he asked me what I was doing for fun outside of work, and I told him, and he said, “Oh, are you and [boy] still doing that twice a week?” It led to a really good conversation, and it was so extremely minor that it didn’t really bug me, it just reminded me that I should probably talk to the guy about what I was saying and hearing in spiritual direction–open up the channels a bit more.

 

[underacloud]

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying.

 

[chevalier]

Okay, here is one thing: I am an opponent of romance without exclusivity. Or, more properly saying: open romance or multi-romance. I say this from the point of view of someone who guards his freedom when it comes to undue or unwarranted commitments, and believes it’s nobody’s business who one has a coffee with. But romance is a different thing from merely getting to know someone. There, I believe in the n-1 point of view:

Whenever n romances are fed or at least had, n-1 of them are by definition futile affairs for a limited period of time, and not one should start when we know it won’t last. In this case we don’t know which ones won’t last, but we know that at most one of them can last, basically, we can specify a number, if not the exact identity, of those that won’t last. For example, out of 3, 2 to 3 are futile.

But this is my private point of view, it’s not really proper theology, it’s some basic maths. I don’t believe one owes somebody a relationship just because things have gone a bit too far one day or the other. But I believe that there’s something wrong with any form of polyamory. Humans aren’t made for that kind of thing. “Non-exlusive” whatever is good for conversations, shared activities, going out and all, but talking and finding out about the other person rather than building a romantic relationship and investing in it.

Also, I believe that people aren’t fair to their “casual dates” when they keep a more mature, more developed and–for all signs–more probable relationship on the back burner. Sure, it may fulfil some egoistic purposes for the person making the arrangements. But it’s unfair on the casualties who fall in love with someone who was merely seeing other people to find out if he or she really is sufficiently certain that someone else is a good enough catch.

Both personalistic ethics (J2P) and Kant agree that human beings can’t be used as mere tools. (And where Catholic ethics and (neo-)Kantism agree on something, that’s quite telling.) This includes being tools for somebody else’s discernment (of marriage with a different person, of a religious calling, of marriage at all).

 

[GCCatholic]

I personally don’t think it’s very nice of him to be dating other people when he showed up at your door asking to try again. I certainly wouldn’t appreciate him telling me about it.

I am like you in that I don’t always like to have face to face conversations.

Maybe in a text or e-mail you could say I like such and such about you and I want to keep hanging out but it makes me uncomfortable that you are seeing other people. I’m sure you didn’t mean to make me feel that way but I am looking for something more exclusive. If you just want to be friends, that’s fine too.

Good luck!

 

[redwatch]

Hi friends,
I want to thank you all for your replies. I just had a talk with him on whether we were actually going to go anywhere, and he said he wasn’t really sure, but he keeps thinking it’s less likely. So I wished him a happy Thanksgiving and left; I suppose we’re now on a sort of break or break-up. I’m not really sure which, I just know I want some space to think things over–if he wasn’t really trying, of course it wasn’t going to work, and if he was going to keep me on the back-burner then I’m not even sure I want to maintain a friendship with him.

Thank you all for your clarity and your insight You have been very kind and generous.

 

[underacloud]

You should find someone who wants to be with you and is sure about that. Don’t wast your time with someone who isn’t thrilled to be with you.

Good luck.

 

[Joe_5859]

Hi friends,
I want to thank you all for your replies. I just had a talk with him on whether we were actually going to go anywhere, and he said he wasn’t really sure, but he keeps thinking it’s less likely. So I wished him a happy Thanksgiving and left; I suppose we’re now on a sort of break or break-up. I’m not really sure which, I just know I want some space to think things over–if he wasn’t really trying, of course it wasn’t going to work, and if he was going to keep me on the back-burner then I’m not even sure I want to maintain a friendship with him.

Thank you all for your clarity and your insight You have been very kind and generous.

That’s rough, but at least now you know. I pray your time apart will be fruitful for you. Underacloud is right. You deserve to be with someone who is thrilled to be with you. Don’t settle for less than that.

 

[redwatch]

Thanks. I’m sure we’d both appreciate your prayers for our paths, whether they be together or separate, if you have any to spare

I’m a little more upset today than I was last night, but this is really going to be what’s best for us. I’m proud of myself for sticking up for my boundaries and what I need, but I’m still sad.

The selfish part of my brain: I just feel like he broke my trust by coming back and asking for another chance, then not really trying to make it work and putting me in the position of having to do most of the work. I’m also upset at the lack of respect that he’s shown me. And I’m upset because I can see how well we could work together if we could just figure out a way to get past the fear and the trust issues, but I’m afraid it’s too broken.

The better, less selfish part of my brain: I can tell he’s unhappy, and that makes me hurt a lot for him; he’s a worrier, and puts a lot of thought into comparing how he thinks he should be feeling with how he is instead of just being, and then he sort of turns inward, tries to deal with it on his own, shuts me out and obsesses over it. Then he falls into a vicious cycle of getting insecure and worried, then compensating with projecting confidence to the point of arrogance, which just makes him feel worse about himself because he knows its one of his tendencies/vices. Selfishness is one of his defense mechanisms. I’ve seen him like this before, and I’ve also seen him so, so happy and joyful and genuinely confident, and I’m frustrated because I don’t know how to help, except by walking away and letting him deal with it himself.

The funny thing is that I think I was doing the exact same thing of turning inward and growing selfish because I was worrying about his worrying and just sort of mentally latching on to little things and obsessing over them and what they could mean and what I was doing wrong or could do better and how I could make myself more desirable as a person. But really recently God hit me over the head with a lot of love and beautiful people and made me realize that I don’t have to do it all on my own, and all of the joy and the confidence that I had in my own life came back and I stopped obsessing and started trusting. I just hope the same thing can happen for this guy.

Sorry for the long post, again; it was just really good to get all of my thoughts out somewhere. If you have any advice for how we can make this better if we come back from this break invested in a relationship, I’d love to hear it (if not, I still very much appreciate you reading this). I’m definitely going to be making sure that he’s actually committed instead of being half-hearted and scared about it, but beyond that I’m not sure what to do.

Needless to say, spiritual direction this afternoon is going to be interesting

 

[Lucky7]

Please update us on what your spiritual director says because it seems to me that he was totally off base which surprises me (especially since he advises your former BF too). Something doesn’t seem right here.