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CWBetts
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Imagine having those same discussions with family!!! My sister-in-law thinks I am on the express train to Hell. And being the only Catholic in the family makes things somewhat difficult…
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JudieK
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I can imagine it because I am a Catholic convert in an a-religious family. My sister became a Baptist. At first we discussed things (a.k.a. argued) but we realized that for the sake of family unity it is best to focus on our shared beliefs and not mention those things that separate us. It makes for peace, but there is also a “wall” between us… we will never be totally close because what is so important to both of us is not the same and we both feel so passionate about our beliefs that it hurts to hear others try to knock it down. We have tried to just be very respectful and such, but with sisters, things quickly become personal and feelings get dragged in. So we have a “buffer zone” between us where no religious debate is allowed.
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nlm
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I think what happened was that by creating the catechism the church knew some of the people would not read the Bible, others would, but would not be able to interprete it while others such as children and young people would read only the catechism
When you look at catechisms from years ago, many of the answers are given by saying something such as " because it is tradition or because the Pope says". It was then taken at face value and became what people believed. Sad really.
I would suggest that one does not get into heaven by living by " sacred tradition" nor by" magisterial teachings" but by the inspired Word of God. Nothing else.As a child and young adult in school receiving his early christian education from nuns, I was NEVER suggested to me that I read the Bible. Why, because I might ask difficult questions. I might ask for scriptural references for certain points found in the catechism which only gave sacred tradition as the reason we had to do certain things. Show me a scriptural reference for the number of hours one must fast prior to communion. Show me in scripture where it says an un baptised infant will never see the face of God.Show me where it says that if a person commits suicide he is to be deprived of a Christian burial.We have no idea the relationship this individual had with his God. The church was not punishing the deceased but his family and making an example of the deceased. How Christian is that? The catechism spoke of all these issues over the years including when I went to school which was not exactly in the dark ages.Those teachings based on nothing but tradition are still well etched in many catholic minds today. How terrible a thing. Live and die by the written word of God and you will have nothing to worry about. You can’t go wrong if you live by the word. NLM
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JudieK
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The Word of God is Jesus Christ. God’s most complete revelation of Himself was to send His son Jesus to live and walk among us.
This is a response I wrote to an old friend of mine who was an atheist but was reconsidering Christianity. He asked me why I was Catholic. This is what I said:
One thing I love about being Catholic is that we don’t have to reinvent the wheel. It is not up to each individual believer to examine the Bible for themselves and decide what it means. And doesn’t that make sense? Shouldn’t there be a consensus after 1600 years of study? Yet there is not. Every person who reads the Bible and interprets it in a unique way can start an offshoot church of their own. And today, there are over 30,000 known Christian denominations worldwide.
As Catholics, we believe that Christ was resurrected and spent the next 40 days with his disciples, teaching them all that they needed to know in order to go out and spread the Gospel to the world. It was a very unique and grace-filled time in Salvation History. The Bible said that Jesus told Peter “You are Peter (which means “rock”), and on this rock I will build my Church.” Jesus “breathed” on the disciples and gave them the power to go in his name and carry on His mission, hearing the sins of others and bestowing His forgiveness, among other things. Jesus said “As I have done, now you also do.”
Following the Ascension, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to all His believers at Pentecost. They were then emboldened to go out and preach without fear. The world was set aflame by the Gospel of Christ. Guided by the Spirit, the Church began to grow and flourish. As the Church grew far and wide, there was a need to insure that all believers had a consistent practice of the faith… that they “would all be one” as Jesus and His Father are one. Paul, who had evangelized the Gentiles in his journeys, wrote frequent letters to the various churches, correcting them in certain points where they may have strayed into error. His writings were kept and shared by the earliest Christians, who recognized their value in instructing future believers. Other letters were also deemed likewise beneficial.
It is important to note that the early Church fathers were also prolific writers. St. Justin Martyr wrote his “Apology” to the Roman leaders c. 160 A.D. In it he explained the faith of Christians, including the eucharist, as the true “body and blood” of Christ. Disciples of the original 12 apostles- men such as St. Polycarp- wrote many letters outlining the faith as taught to them directly by the apostles. Brian these were men that sat at the feet of the apostles- learning first hand the faith Jesus entrusted to them! There can be no question that they understood what Jesus actually meant. As early as the second century the Christian church called itself “Catholic.”
Long before there was a Bible, there was the Church, teaching and preaching the Gospel that was given to the Apostles by Jesus. What they taught was passed on, generation to generation, protected by the Holy Spirit. This is what we call the Sacred Tradition of the Church - the teaching of the Apostles that was passed on through the centuries. The Bible is but a part of the Sacred Tradition of the Church! The Catholic Church collected writings that were sent to and used by the various far-flung churches. At the Council of Hippo in 393, bishops decided on which writings would be included in the official Canon of Scripture. These writings were chosen based on several criteria- mostly Apostolic origin, usefulness in liturgy, and conformity to the rule of faith. The Bible consisted of 73 books, not the 66 that most Protestant bibles have. Contrary to popular belief, The Catholic Church did not “add” seven books that were not there before. Martin Luther removed 7 books from the Canon of Scripture that had existed since the beginning when they did not support his unique interpretation of the Gospel.
Because we believe that Jesus founded a teaching church with the full authority of Christ to carry on His mission, Catholics look to the Church for guidance. We recognize that Sacred Scripture is a product of this Church, and is truly the Word of God, but only as it was preached by and through this same Church. So only the Church has the authority to say what God meant, and what He needed us to know. This information isn’t something subjective that can change with every believer, but is a pillar of truth- unchanging through the ages. It is the obligation of the believer to seek the truth, and conform to it, not the other way around! (Modern people seek to find a church that conforms to their own beliefs and lifestyles… a backward and self-centered approach!) Taking the Bible out of the context of the whole Sacred Tradition of the Church is like taking the Constitution to another land and saying this is all you need to know to understand America. “Read this, decide what it means for yourself, and you will be an American!” And yet American culture is so much more than just the Constitution!
Because Sacred Tradition is almost 2000 years old, there has been plenty of time to ponder and contemplate exactly what God wanted us to know to achieve salvation and to live a life pleasing to Him. Some of the greatest minds in history have already wrestled with these ideas. Surprisingly (or not, if you’re Catholic!) what the Church teaches and practices today is almost exactly the same as it was almost 2000 years ago! A reading of the early Church fathers confirms this. ( I could cite many references, if you request). That is why Catholics don’t do “Bible Studies” with the same sense of purpose that Protestants do. We don’t feel the need to figure out what God is saying… we already know! We’ve had 2000 years to think it over. Of course the Bible is read at every mass, a liturgical use much like the earliest Christians utilized. Bible reading and study for personal devotion is encouraged.
The official resource that encapsulates the teachings of the Catholic Church is called The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is like an encyclopedia of all that we believe on every subject. It draws from the Bible, of course, but not exclusively. Since we believe the Church is led and protected from error by the Holy Spirit, we look to the teachings of popes and saints and historical church councils as well. These all comprise the Sacred Tradition of the Church as it has moved through the ages.
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nlm
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Let me say just how well written that is.I must also say I believe and agree with most of what you have written.WE are more alike than different. I must however ask this. Towards the end you speak of the Holy Spirit protecting your church from errors. May I use this longstanding teachings of the catholic church as an example.What happens to un baptised infants if they die and the fact they would go to a place called Limbo and never see the face of God. The current Pope has now changed the way the catholic church sees this issue. This has been the case with many other teachings. How do you explain this fundamental change of belief? Again, very well explained. Good for you.NLM
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Anna_Scott
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**
JesusOnlyWay:** I am a Protestant Christian, but I’m afraid I have to agree with Rolltide on the warning regarding adding or removing words in Revelation. The Bible is a collection of Books. Revelation was a separate book when these warnings were written.
If you study the transmission of Scripture, you will find that some scribes were more than willing to do a little editing here and there, as they copied manuscripts. Subsequently, it was not unusual to find a warning from the original author, in an effort to make sure his words were transmitted accurately.
Revelation was a controversial book that barely made it into the New Testament. Revelation is not the only Book in the Bible with such a warning:
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 (ESV): 1 "And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.
Deuteronomy 12:32 (ESV): 32 "Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
I think it is important to remember that we share our Christian history with the Catholic Church to the point of the Protestant Reformation–which has its own set of problems.
In these Forums, I have been arguing the issue of going straight to Scripture vs. Scripture interpreted in light of tradition.
In the last few days, I have begun to realize that many Protestant beliefs are also handed down as tradition. (I need to PM Forum Member Contarini-he would be proud of me.) We may have our Bibles open while in Bible Class or Church Service; but there is always a leader who is telling us what the Scriptures are saying. We are most definitely indoctrinated.
The writings of the church fathers are not just Catholic heritage, they are part of our Protestant heritage, as well. We share the same beliefs defined in the Nicene Creed.
I it not uncommon for Protestant teachers and ministers to refer to commentaries of other Christians. This is a similar concept as the Catholic Catechism. It is just less formal, usually from more recent authors, and no specific writings are held with equal esteem within the Protestant Sector.
Then there is the issue of the many Protestant Bibles. Not all are created equal. The most offensive to me are some of the Amplified Versions, which add commentaries to the main body of text of Holy Scripture—the commentaries are only identified by Parentheses. Joyce Meyer’s Amplified Bible is one example. This Bible also bears her name-another disturbing issue.
Nearly every Protestant Minister has a book out, now. Some have written multiple books. These are commentaries, which quote Scripture and then interpret the Scripture for the reader.
I am not saying that I am going to convert to Catholicism, but I do have a great respect for their faith. I enjoy these forums, because of the wealth of knowledge regarding Church history, which I cannot find in the Protestant Sector.
I do believe that the Holy Spirit gives us discernment of Scripture. I do not believe that we, as Protestants, can claim that the Holy Spirit only speaks to us.
In Pursuit of God’s Truth,
Anna
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JudieK
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Anna- Bless you! That’s all we can ask! We’re all in this together, and I believe we are all sincere in our pursuit of God’s truth. Let us all pray for each other!
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allhers
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JesusOnlyWay
Just so you won’t look any more ignorant of Catholic teaching than you already do, you might want to update your
files, in post # 40 you said this:
b) Korol Wojtyla, the current pope, allows himself to be called “Holy Father”.
Sometimes people like you do give us a good laugh though.
There is never a contradiction between Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
You’d be far better off asking us a question, one at a time then coming on here and posting a bunch of things that YOU consider contradictions. Why would it be so hard to just ask instead?
Just so you won’t look any more ignorant of Catholic teaching than you already do, you might want to update your
files, in post # 40 you said this:
b) Korol Wojtyla, the current pope, allows himself to be called “Holy Father”.
Sometimes people like you do give us a good laugh though.
There is never a contradiction between Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
You’d be far better off asking us a question, one at a time then coming on here and posting a bunch of things that YOU consider contradictions. Why would it be so hard to just ask instead?
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Anna_Scott
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Anna_Scott
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JesusOnlyWay just got banned.
I can see why: he or (she) did come in with “guns blazing”; but at the same time, I think these Forums would be good for him–if he would have listened for awhile.
I think he needs our prayers.
Anna
I can see why: he or (she) did come in with “guns blazing”; but at the same time, I think these Forums would be good for him–if he would have listened for awhile.
I think he needs our prayers.
Anna
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JudieK
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NLM- I just spent the last… oh…45 minutes typing a reply to your question… I have books and everything surrounding me… and when I hit “submit reply” the forums made me sign in again. When I did, it was as if I never typed a thing!!! GRRRR! When am I going to learn to type my responses on a word documents and then paste them into the response area when I’m finished??? this has happened to me more times than I wish to recall. So now I must beg your patience… my husband has been patiently waiting for me to get off the computer, so I’ll have to tackle that one tomorrow. Have a good night everyone! Judie
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allhers
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The current Pope explained it is all.
Does where you go now believe in infant Baptism? What happens to babies when they die in your belief, if they aren’t Baptized?
I’d seriously like you to answer this for me too, can you tell me at what point, after you left
the Church, you figured out that the readings you were hearing at Mass were from the
Bible?
Also, since the Church existed before the Bible was compiled, I’m just wondering
what you think happened to all those Christians that died for their belief in Jesus when
they didn’t even have a Bible. I mean seriously, how in the world do YOU think that they
even knew about Jesus without a Bible?
Take your time answering, I won’t be back until at least tomorrow. Thank you.
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Anna_Scott
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JudieK: After I wrote post #59, I looked back through the discussion, and found this post of yours.
I am a Protestant Christian; and in my Post #59, I made many of the same points you made here. You would have thought the same person wrote both Posts. That is very interesting to me. We even both mentioned Joyce Meyer.
Last night, I was very upset by JesusOnlyWay’s attacks on the Catholic Church. I was still thinking about it when I woke up this morning. These forums are a good place for us to learn from one another, and discuss the issues. They are not a place one would expect to find hateful attacks.
JesusOnlyWay’s posts only added to my concern about some of the extreme fundamentalist beliefs emerging in the Protestant Sector—especially when they lead to hateful attacks on those who disagree with them. Even being Protestant, I have been on the receiving end of such attacks.
A longtime friend of my came to visit me a few years ago. At that time, I was reading one book after another on Church history. Church history is rarely taught in Protestant Churches, though that is slowly beginning to change. My friend actually told me that I needed to get rid of some of my books-most were about the history of Judaism and Christianity. I have many Bibles. She was offended by the fact that I had a Catholic Comparative New Testament. She basically treated me like I was a heretic. The way she looked at me and the things she said to me were deeply hurtful. It was as though I was committing some terrible crime by studying history and comparing Bible translations.
We are called to love one another. Sometimes, in the zeal to be right, we forget that.
I have many questions about the Catholic faith, that I will ask over the course of time. There are areas in which we agree and areas in which we sharply disagree. Even in the case of our most serious disagreements, we should be able to discuss them in a respectful way.
May God Remind Us All of His Great Love–and His Commandment to Love One Another,
Anna
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nlm
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Hello Anna Scott. I agree completely with your comments. Yes we are different in many " not so important ways" perhaps but we believe in so many common points.You present your case very well.NLM
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PJM
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***Dear friends in Christ
The Catholic Catechism is not in lieu of the Bible but an appendage to it.
This is what the CC teaches, believes and practices.
The Catholic Catechism is not in lieu of the Bible but an appendage to it.
This is what the CC teaches, believes and practices.
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nlm
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Hello, Seems to me that an issue such as Limbo requires more than a Papal explanation but who am I to say.
Unbaptised infants go to heaven when they die.A forgiving loving God would do nothing else.
Of course I knew the scripture reading in the catholic church were drawn from the Bible.
As for baptism, NO it is NOT necessary to enter heaven. Here is what we believe .Baptism is a public proclamation of salvation. It is similar to marriage which is a public proclamation of love. The love had to be present first,it took love to get to marriage.
Scripture says a man must be born of water and of the spirit to enter into heaven.
First you must be born of water, that being the womb. Then you must be born of the spirit.Scripture said that you must be born again. Scripture NEVER siad you must be immersed or sprinkled to enter heaven. That is what we believe.
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PJM
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Sometimes people like you do give us a good laugh though.
Could it be a “first for the Forum,”
that this person is seeking neither truth or conversion, but trying to build evidence of their own warped perception of who and what we are? 
Love and prayers,
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allhers
Guest
Thank you for clarifying your beliefs, so when you say…“Scripture says a man must be born of water and of the spirit to enter into heaven”.–That doesn’t mean Baptism to you, right? Because it does to us. But you may have known that already, you didn’t ask, but I thought I’d let you know in case you didn’t.
However, you forgot a question…
What about this one?
,since the Church existed before the Bible was compiled, I’m just wondering
what you think happened to all those Christians that died for their belief in Jesus when
they didn’t even have a Bible. I mean seriously, how in the world do YOU think that they
even knew about Jesus without a Bible?
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JudieK
Guest
Dear NLM and Anna- I respect your beliefs and I am greatful for your respect of ours. If I came across as harsh last night it was directed more towards the attacks on the faith that were being lodged by others. I am glad we can all talk about these things with a gentle spirit. I think all we can do is share, and pursue truth sincerely. God will make it all work out. Oh- and of course, pray for each other. And by that I mean pray that God will continue to lead us down the path of salvation and grace.
Anna- keep reading about Church history. Asking questions and seeking answers is NOT wrong. The Catholic Church’s history is an open book. It may be checkered, it may be filled with human failings, but it’s all there, for all to see. Empires have come and gone, kingdoms have risen and fell, but the Church has survived all it. The only explanation I can see is that God has preserved it as He promised. Even if you don’t believe in Catholic teaching, Church history is YOUR history, too. It’s interesting. I recommend Jergen’s The Faith of the Early Fathers. My sister, a Baptist, had a homeschooling text book that included writings of the early church fathers. I was thrilled!!! But after paging through it, I noticed something… all references to the eucharist and eating “the body and blood of our lord” were omitted! Anything that sounded too “Catholic” was left out! So be sure you read the source material and not just snippets. You will be shocked to see that in the first and second centuries the church was extremely Catholic… even used the word “Catholic” to describe itself, and was very much about the eucharist… just like we are today.
NLM- I am going to log off and compose my answer to you so that I don’t lose my work again! I haven’t forgotten, and will have it either this evening or tomorrow (I may have to work on it on my lunch hour tomorrow!)
In the words of Tiny Tim: “God Bless us, Every One!” Judie
Anna- keep reading about Church history. Asking questions and seeking answers is NOT wrong. The Catholic Church’s history is an open book. It may be checkered, it may be filled with human failings, but it’s all there, for all to see. Empires have come and gone, kingdoms have risen and fell, but the Church has survived all it. The only explanation I can see is that God has preserved it as He promised. Even if you don’t believe in Catholic teaching, Church history is YOUR history, too. It’s interesting. I recommend Jergen’s The Faith of the Early Fathers. My sister, a Baptist, had a homeschooling text book that included writings of the early church fathers. I was thrilled!!! But after paging through it, I noticed something… all references to the eucharist and eating “the body and blood of our lord” were omitted! Anything that sounded too “Catholic” was left out! So be sure you read the source material and not just snippets. You will be shocked to see that in the first and second centuries the church was extremely Catholic… even used the word “Catholic” to describe itself, and was very much about the eucharist… just like we are today.
NLM- I am going to log off and compose my answer to you so that I don’t lose my work again! I haven’t forgotten, and will have it either this evening or tomorrow (I may have to work on it on my lunch hour tomorrow!)
In the words of Tiny Tim: “God Bless us, Every One!” Judie
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