Catechism vs Scripture

[JRKH]

Anna,
As if you don’t have enough to consider, I am going to throw a link in here to a thread I started a week or so a go about doctrinal unity called "How Can We Agree To Disagree".

You might find it ineresting in relation to the idea of interpretation and being “Of One Mind” as Christ and St Paul wished for.

Peace
James

 

[Anna_Scott]

My guess is that they wouldn’t have known who Fr. Corapi was. They knew that thousands of Catholics would be downtown for a conference, and so therefore it was a great opportunity to evangelize us against the “errors of our ways.” God bless them… they believe they are doing the right thing… they are trying to save us. But they just don’t understand Catholic theology, and it isn’t something you can explain in a soundbite on a street corner. I hope people were charitable to them.

The “one mediator” argument is heard often. People believe that because we confess our sins to a priest that we don’t go directly to Christ. But we believe that the priest acts “in persona Christi” and thereby we ARE confessing our sins to Jesus, who gave his apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name. The sacraments are amazing channels of grace… whereby the veil between Heaven and earth is lifted for a moment and we can have a real encounter with Christ, through the stuff and matter of creation. What an awesome God to think of that, knowing our nature!! But it is hard for non-Catholics to understand it. They also think that because we ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us that we don’t go to Christ. Marian theology will ALWAYS rankle a non-Catholic, and it is usually the last objection to go for a convert. But once you understand what the Church believes (REALLY believes) about Mary, it is beautiful and wonderful. Mary ALWAYS points to her SON. Mary is special BECAUSE of her son. There is no competition between mother and son.

My sister used to quote the “righteousness as filthy rags” verse to “prove” that God does not desire any works whatsoever but only faith. Unfortuneately Matthew 25 contradicts that idea straight away! The filthy rags verse is being taken out of context… it was part of a lamentation of Israel when it felt God had turned away from them because of their unfaithfulness. Basically they were crying out to God saying “Nothing we do will please you now because of our unfaithfulness… all our good deeds (righteousness) is as filthy rags to you!” - pretty much just stating to God how unhappy He is with them at that point. To extrapolate that into meaning that God does not desire righteousness from His believers, but merely faith alone, is silly. That’s my view, anyway.

I hope you feel better, Anna. Don’t wear yourself out over these posts… they can be draining!

Your friend… Judie

JudieK:

I think the “Protestant” protesters were missing the big picture. I just read an interview with Fr. Corapi online. Sounds like he makes some very interesting points about sin and the direction of our country.

I’m aware of the Scriptures the Protestants used, but I am disappointed in the way they were used against this Catholic conference. There are many things that would be difficult for me to accept in the Catholic Faith. The Priesthood issue is one of them.

However, I think this is a time for all Christians to find common ground and unite against corruption and sin in our society. Fighting each other serves no purpose, other than to injure the Christian Faith. I think we, Protestants and Catholics, should keep talking to one another–with respect. That is one way to clear up misconceptions on both sides. At the end of the day; we may not agree, but we can love one another, pray for one another, and keep communication open.

God Bless you JudieK. I am glad you had such a wonderful day at the conference with Fr. Corapi .

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’ve read all the responses to my posts-many interesting points were made regarding Scripture, Authority, and the role of the Holy Spirit. I appreciate all your efforts. You have all given me so much of your time; and I love you for that.

I have so much I want to say. Yet, I am so physically exhausted, I do not know if I have the energy to respond. As I’ve said before, I have some very serious health issues, my energy is limited.

I was, for awhile, starting to really consider the Catholic Faith. However, after the last round of responses, I see that there are some beliefs that I really cannot accept.

The very “living and active” words of Scripture; and the prayer given to me by the Holy Spirit, accomplished a delivery from cancer. Through that experience, my eyes were opened to the power of God’s Word to accomplish His purpose; and to the power of the Holy Spirit to intercede on our behalf, even to the point of giving me the words to pray. I wish I had the energy to tell my story. It is a testimony that deserves the best that I can give in the telling. So, my present state of exhaustion is not the time.

Philthy: You said, “The thing which testifies to and validates that scripture is what it is, is tradition.”

I believe the Holy Spirit accomplishes the testimony and validity of Scripture. I would never be able to choose “tradition” over the Holy Spirit.

You did say. “It has a special place of honor and it is alive by the power of the holy spirit, and it is god “speaking” to us.” Yet, in your next breath you said, “but it does not have authority per se.”

I could never view the Bible as “a book, being inanimate, that cannot have authority.”

. . . .a book, being inanimate, cannot have “authority”. It does not testify to its authenticity. It does not canonize itself. It does not copy, translate and distribute itself. The thing which testifies to and validates that scripture is what it is, is tradition.

It has a special place of honor and it is alive by the power of the holy spirit, and it is god “speaking” to us, but it does not have authority. We can choose to give an interpretation of it authority, but it does not have authority per se

does this verse say that anna scott will be given another helper in order to individually interpret scripture accurately? Does it say that every sincerely seeking individual will be given this spirit? Does it simply refer to the apostles? The apostles and their successors?? You have made quite a leap in assuming that everyone who is a christian will receive this gift. Especially in light of the fact that you now hold opinions of scriputre different than your former baptist friends. Would you dare say that since you disagree with their interpretations that one of you did not receive this gift of the holy spirit???

Philthy, your statements diminish the role of the Holy Spirit, to accomplish God’s purpose in our lives----to such an extent, that I am inclined to say goodbye to CAF. My faith in the Holy Trinity is not one of mere words; but of experiencing God’s power, presence, and intervention throughout my life.

I think the Catholic Encyclopedia’s articles on Protestantism dealt a serious blow. Forum comments only solidified the article’s point of view. Since I have been continually reminded that Catholics are united in beliefs; I must assume that the article and philthy’s words represent the views of Catholicism.

During my short time here, I have endured all sorts of assaults on Protestantism. I have taken them in stride. However, I think I have finally received that “last straw.”

So, my friends, I will take my leave–having no ill feelings. I pray that God will bring all Christians to unity in Christ. I will continue my journey—holding fast to the teachings of our Lord and God’s call to love one another.

Anna

 

[JudieK]

Bless you, Anna, and may you grow ever closer to God on your journey! But let me just say that I wouldn’t let THESE forums change your mind. We’re amatuers, shootin’ our mouths off! Go to the sources… read the documents of Vatican II (easy reading, I assure you!)-even if it’s just the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation. It states officially the Church’s teachings on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, etc. But even if you don’t, God will continue to guide you and draw you closer. And may you enjoy a long and healthy life. Best wishes!!! Judie

 

[nlm]

I’ve read all the responses to my posts-many interesting points were made regarding Scripture, Authority, and the role of the Holy Spirit. I appreciate all your efforts. You have all given me so much of your time; and I love you for that.

I have so much I want to say. Yet, I am so physically exhausted, I do not know if I have the energy to respond. As I’ve said before, I have some very serious health issues, my energy is limited.

I was, for awhile, starting to really consider the Catholic Faith. However, after the last round of responses, I see that there are some beliefs that I really cannot accept.

The very “living and active” words of Scripture; and the prayer given to me by the Holy Spirit, accomplished a delivery from cancer. Through that experience, my eyes were opened to the power of God’s Word to accomplish His purpose; and to the power of the Holy Spirit to intercede on our behalf, even to the point of giving me the words to pray. I wish I had the energy to tell my story. It is a testimony that deserves the best that I can give in the telling. So, my present state of exhaustion is not the time.

Philthy: You said, “The thing which testifies to and validates that scripture is what it is, is tradition.”

I believe the Holy Spirit accomplishes the testimony and validity of Scripture. I would never be able to choose “tradition” over the Holy Spirit.

You did say. “It has a special place of honor and it is alive by the power of the holy spirit, and it is god “speaking” to us.” Yet, in your next breath you said, “but it does not have authority per se.”

I could never view the Bible as “a book, being inanimate, that cannot have authority.”

Anna, I am very sad to see you go but can understand exactly why you have made that decision. Let me start by saying thank you for having seen how I was being mistreated by SOME on this Forum. I am not at all surprised becoming a Catholic is not for you.From reading your threads, I can see why you would not.Interestingly, many of those reasons are the same reasons I am no longer catholic.You are more articulate and more able to express yourself especially in the English language. Many of the fundamental beliefs of the catholic church became impossible for me to accept. I have recently come to the realization that probably my entire life,I was a Protestant in the body of one who had been born in the catholic church. I never remember believing in the authority of the Pope, the actual presence in the eucharist, confessing to a Priest, purgatory, limbo and the list goes on and on. Someone said in a thread a few days ago ," Once a decision is reached by the church the faithful who might still disagree submit their will to the will of Christ in the Church thus…". That has NEVER been my experience. I think a more REAL statement would be that once a direction comes from Rome, if it does not fit into some lifestyles, they ignore it and go about doing what they want. One example is birth control.If you think that Protestant women keep the pharmacies going, think again. I worked in health care and say numerous catholic women coming in for a refill prescription for the pill.If you think people are still going to confession as faithfully as they were or at all, think again.People are saying, it’s none of his business what I do.I will confess directly to God. I could go on but I won’t. Responses to this will be that mine is a small sampling of catholic people.In 50 years,I have been exposed to more than a small sampling. Tradition no matter how you explain it just does not work for me nor did it ever.I try and respect all Faiths and Denominations. God Bless you Anna and thank you for all you did and said in this Forum. You are quite a person, one which truly is lead by the Holy Spirit.He will guide you in the right direction as He did for me. NLM

 

[JudieK]

Dear NLM- I am glad that you have found peace. I do not begrudge your journey at all. I just have one small comment…

It is true that Catholics committ sins at the same rate everyone else does. Divorce, birth control, you name it. I would never deny that. The Church is FULL of sinners. We all fall short. That is why I would never judge the truth of faith by how well those in the pews follow it. The truth is true whether ANYONE follows it or not. My job is to be the best Christian I can be. My job it to touch those in my circle of influence and share the truth of the Gospel with them. If they are Catholic, I can share the Church’s teachings with them. I can be excited about the beauty of sacrificial love vs. the world’s view of quick and easy divorce. But no matter what, we can’t make people stop sinning. I would rather the Church be full of sinners than be empty, because at least if they’re at church they may just hear the one thing that may make them change. God’s grace is THERE- it is good that they are there!

We live in wicked times. There is so much temptation to and acceptance of evil in our society. Those who live in that world 6 days a week come to Church on Sunday, bringing all of who they are with them. Of course the church is full of sinners. It always has been, always will be, on this side of the veil. Jesus came for sinners. I’m sure your church is full of them, too.

Blessings to you! Judie

 

[nlm]

Dear NLM- I am glad that you have found peace. I do not begrudge your journey at all. I just have one small comment…

It is true that Catholics committ sins at the same rate everyone else does. Divorce, birth control, you name it. I would never deny that. The Church is FULL of sinners. We all fall short. That is why I would never judge the truth of faith by how well those in the pews follow it. The truth is true whether ANYONE follows it or not. My job is to be the best Christian I can be. My job it to touch those in my circle of influence and share the truth of the Gospel with them. If they are Catholic, I can share the Church’s teachings with them. I can be excited about the beauty of sacrificial love vs. the world’s view of quick and easy divorce. But no matter what, we can’t make people stop sinning. I would rather the Church be full of sinners than be empty, because at least if they’re at church they may just hear the one thing that may make them change. God’s grace is THERE- it is good that they are there!

We live in wicked times. There is so much temptation to and acceptance of evil in our society. Those who live in that world 6 days a week come to Church on Sunday, bringing all of who they are with them. Of course the church is full of sinners. It always has been, always will be, on this side of the veil. Jesus came for sinners. I’m sure your church is full of them, too.

Blessings to you! Judie

Judie, You are EXACTLY correct. The problem I have is when I read a thread coming from an individual who appears to be well versed in the Catholic church trying to lead others to believe that when instructions come from Rome, even those who disagree accept and live by those instructions. IF I am correct and that is what was said then he is wrong.On the front lines, people who do not accept those teachings do not practice them. Yes, that makes them sinners like the rest of us but be honest about things from within. I would say a truer statement would be that the church has a problem with front line catholic not accepting and not practicing many of the directives they receive from Rome. THAT then reflects the truth, NOT what was said before.God Bless NLM

 

[davidv]

Judie, You are EXACTLY correct. The problem I have is when I read a thread coming from an individual who appears to be well versed in the Catholic church trying to lead others to believe that when instructions come from Rome, even those who disagree accept and live by those instructions. IF I am correct and that is what was said then he is wrong.On the front lines, people who do not accept those teachings do not practice them. Yes, that makes them sinners like the rest of us but be honest about things from within. I would say a truer statement would be that the church has a problem with front line catholic not accepting and not practicing many of the directives they receive from Rome. THAT then reflects the truth, NOT what was said before.God Bless NLM

Why do you think instructions come from “Rome”? Rome is the secular capital of the country of Italy.

The Church is a divine institution with its visible leader residing in the sovereign city state of Vatican City.

Instructions from the Vatican come by way of the authority of Christ.

 

[JRKH]

Judie, You are EXACTLY correct. The problem I have is when I read a thread coming from an individual who appears to be well versed in the Catholic church trying to lead others to believe that when instructions come from Rome, even those who disagree accept and live by those instructions. IF I am correct and that is what was said then he is wrong.

The person you are refering to may be me, although I am sure others have said the same, or a similar, thing. In making such a statement I am generally refering to those persons who, in council and debate within the chuch, find that their position is not accepted bend to the will of the Church. They do not go out and start another “Bible based” church teaching doctrine contrary to what The Church decided.
This is not to say that discention does not continue within the Church for, as Judie has pointed out, we are all sinners and all fall short. I try to only speak in terms of what the Church teaches and the humility of obedience that has helped to hold the Church together for 2000 years. I cannot speak to the actions of each individual, even large numbers of them who might be sinning.
I’m sure that you would not wish to answer for the actions of each and every memeber of your chuch group either. It is better that we discuss the “Doctrines” of the Church rather thatn the actions of the members.

On the front lines, people who do not accept those teachings do not practice them.

If I my clarify. "SOME people do not accept those teachings and do not parctice them. I can easily say and demonstrate from people here on the CAF that there are peoplw who DO accept those teachings and practice them.
You use the military term, “On the front lines”, well on the frontl line of a military campagn, there will be many who obey orders, many who will avoid orders, and some who will be cowardly about the orders. Does such variation in the actions of individuals negate the legitiamcy of the Orders? Would it be better if the Colonels who disagree with the General’s decision to go out and devise their won strategy and issue their own orders to their troops? How about the captains and lieutenants under them? Should they ignore and or change the orders they recieve? If they do, or if they ignore the orders, what chaos ensues and how many soldiers die uselessly and how meny battles are lost?

Yes, that makes them sinners like the rest of us but be honest about things from within. I would say a truer statement would be that the church has a problem with front line catholic not accepting and not practicing many of the directives they receive from Rome. THAT then reflects the truth, NOT what was said before.God Bless NLM

you are right. There is a problem within the Church with this. I am hopeful that this will be more actively addressed by the un and coming clergy and others who are more influenced by JP-II and B-XVI, than by P-VI and Vat-II.
In the meantime those who DO follow the directives of the Church and submit will continue to pray that the “front line” Catholics learn and confrom to the Church they profess. I believe that this would be a great help to bringing others to the faith.

I noticed one thing in your other post, about “Catholic women” getting their birth control prescriptions filled. While I do not deny this occurring I do suspect you are only seeing the one side. How many Catholic Women enter a pharmacy and announce to you that they are NOT using birth control because it is against Church teaching? I don’t mean to be a smart-alec about it so I hope you don’t take it that way.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I’ve read all the responses to my posts-many interesting points were made regarding Scripture, Authority, and the role of the Holy Spirit. I appreciate all your efforts. You have all given me so much of your time; and I love you for that.

I have so much I want to say. Yet, I am so physically exhausted, I do not know if I have the energy to respond. As I’ve said before, I have some very serious health issues, my energy is limited.

I was, for awhile, starting to really consider the Catholic Faith. However, after the last round of responses, I see that there are some beliefs that I really cannot accept.

The very “living and active” words of Scripture; and the prayer given to me by the Holy Spirit, accomplished a delivery from cancer. Through that experience, my eyes were opened to the power of God’s Word to accomplish His purpose; and to the power of the Holy Spirit to intercede on our behalf, even to the point of giving me the words to pray. I wish I had the energy to tell my story. It is a testimony that deserves the best that I can give in the telling. So, my present state of exhaustion is not the time.

Philthy: You said, “The thing which testifies to and validates that scripture is what it is, is tradition.”

I believe the Holy Spirit accomplishes the testimony and validity of Scripture. I would never be able to choose “tradition” over the Holy Spirit.

You did say. “It has a special place of honor and it is alive by the power of the holy spirit, and it is god “speaking” to us.” Yet, in your next breath you said, “but it does not have authority per se.”

I could never view the Bible as “a book, being inanimate, that cannot have authority.”

Anna,
I too am sad to see you go. Your posts, questions and comments have meant a great deal to me. I hope that I have not said anything to you to give offense.

I see now that you do indeed have severe health issues going on and can better understand when you say you are exhausted.
Certainly coming to a Catholic Forum requires a great deal of energy since your questions are likely to receive many answers with different slants coming from each individuals journey.

I also hope that you will take JudieK’s advise about using source documents of the Church and not just relying on what we amateurs say here.

I pray God continue to lead you in His paths, for I am sure He will lead you Home.

Peace
James

 

[Philthy]

Anna Scott;:

I have so much I want to say. Yet, I am so physically exhausted, I do not know if I have the energy to respond. As I’ve said before, I have some very serious health issues, my energy is limited.

Know that you are in our prayers

I was, for awhile, starting to really consider the Catholic Faith. However, after the last round of responses, I see that there are some beliefs that I really cannot accept.

Sorry to hear that…and somewhat confused as well.

The very “living and active” words of Scripture; and the prayer given to me by the Holy Spirit, accomplished a delivery from cancer. Through that experience, my eyes were opened to the power of God’s Word to accomplish His purpose; and to the power of the Holy Spirit to intercede on our behalf, even to the point of giving me the words to pray. I wish I had the energy to tell my story. It is a testimony that deserves the best that I can give in the telling. So, my present state of exhaustion is not the time.

Thank you for sharing this! I hope you didnt misconstrue any of what I wrote to mean that the Holy Spirit cannot be active in your life - that seems to be what you are suggesting.

I believe the Holy Spirit accomplishes the testimony and validity of Scripture. I would never be able to choose “tradition” over the Holy Spirit.

Choose Tradition over the holy Spirit??? Tradition is a work of the Holy Spirit Anna! It is the holy Spirit active in our lives! You are setting up obstacles that don’t exist!
You restated your belief that the Holy Spirit “accomplishes the testimony and validity of Scripture”, but you didnt exactly address the HOW exactly, WHEN exactly and WHO exactly the holy Spirit accomplishes this. Catholics simply accept that the holy Spirit accomplished the revelation of Scripture through a specific collection of individuals, at a specific point in time.

You did say. “It has a special place of honor and it is alive by the power of the holy spirit, and it is god “speaking” to us.” Yet, in your next breath you said, “but it does not have authority per se.”
I could never view the Bible as “a book, being inanimate, that cannot have authority.”

It is clear that you and I are using a different understanding of the word “authority”

Philthy, your statements diminish the role of the Holy Spirit, to accomplish God’s purpose in our lives----to such an extent, that I am inclined to say goodbye to CAF. My faith in the Holy Trinity is not one of mere words; but of experiencing God’s power, presence, and intervention throughout my life.

Well I am sorry to hear you say this. I am not doing a good job of communicating. Not only did I not intend to diminish the role of the Holy Spirit to accomplish God’s purpose in our lives, but I didnt mean to scare you off. I am sorry. I have also experienced the holy Spirits power in my life, and I am part of the Charismatic movement within the Catholic Church - a group who’s sole purpose is to awaken the sense of the holy Spirit in each individual - in no way would I try to limit the holy Spirit’s power in each of our lives.

So, my friends, I will take my leave–having no ill feelings. I pray that God will bring all Christians to unity in Christ. I will continue my journey—holding fast to the teachings of our Lord and God’s call to love one another.
Anna

I join you in that prayer and will pray for your health. And I will finish this post as I began the prior one:

Philthy:

Thank you for sharing your journey. **For what its worth, I think your are following God’s call in your life. **I did want to comment on a couple things that you said. Perhaps you will find the comments useful, perhaps not. They are meant to help you on your way…

God’s peace be with you Anna

Phil

 

[nlm]

The person you are refering to may be me, although I am sure others have said the same, or a similar, thing. In making such a statement I am generally refering to those persons who, in council and debate within the chuch, find that their position is not accepted bend to the will of the Church. They do not go out and start another “Bible based” church teaching doctrine contrary to what The Church decided.
This is not to say that discention does not continue within the Church for, as Judie has pointed out, we are all sinners and all fall short. I try to only speak in terms of what the Church teaches and the humility of obedience that has helped to hold the Church together for 2000 years. I cannot speak to the actions of each individual, even large numbers of them who might be sinning.
I’m sure that you would not wish to answer for the actions of each and every memeber of your chuch group either. It is better that we discuss the “Doctrines” of the Church rather thatn the actions of the members.

If I my clarify. "SOME people do not accept those teachings and do not parctice them. I can easily say and demonstrate from people here on the CAF that there are peoplw who DO accept those teachings and practice them.
You use the military term, “On the front lines”, well on the frontl line of a military campagn, there will be many who obey orders, many who will avoid orders, and some who will be cowardly about the orders. Does such variation in the actions of individuals negate the legitiamcy of the Orders? Would it be better if the Colonels who disagree with the General’s decision to go out and devise their won strategy and issue their own orders to their troops? How about the captains and lieutenants under them? Should they ignore and or change the orders they recieve? If they do, or if they ignore the orders, what chaos ensues and how many soldiers die uselessly and how meny battles are lost?

you are right. There is a problem within the Church with this. I am hopeful that this will be more actively addressed by the un and coming clergy and others who are more influenced by JP-II and B-XVI, than by P-VI and Vat-II.
In the meantime those who DO follow the directives of the Church and submit will continue to pray that the “front line” Catholics learn and confrom to the Church they profess. I believe that this would be a great help to bringing others to the faith.

I noticed one thing in your other post, about “Catholic women” getting their birth control prescriptions filled. While I do not deny this occurring I do suspect you are only seeing the one side. How many Catholic Women enter a pharmacy and announce to you that they are NOT using birth control because it is against Church teaching? I don’t mean to be a smart-alec about it so I hope you don’t take it that way.

Peace
James

Let me start by saying when I say Rome, of course I mean the Vatican and more specifically the Pope. I thought that would be understood. Falling short and being sinners is VERY human there is no doubt but what I am speaking about are couples who are making a conscious decision to limit pregnancies, contrary to what is directed by the Pope. First of all, at the altar, in the sight of God, they promised to welcome all the children God would send them. I mentionned some of these women being on the pill. I could also speak of many others who have had tubal ligations or their husbands have had vasectomies or are using a male form of birth control. If this were not true, Catholic families would consist of the large numbers of children they had years ago. Abstenance is not being practiced and the rhythm method does not work very well for most couples. So, where are the children? Where are the baptisms.Let me tell you the story of a couple I know. They are currently in their late sixties. They were very faithful Catholics.They followed the Church teaching TO THE LETTER. They both came from very traditional Catholic families. Each had 10 to 12 siblings. When they stood at the altar and were married they promised to welcome all the children God would send them as had done their parents before them. After 5 VERY difficult pregnancies and HORRIBLE deliveries, they, together, on the FIRM advice of a physician ,decided that if she was to live and be able to look after her family they should have no more children.She was put on the pill. They REALLY wrestled with this as it went against the teachings of the church. The next year when their parish priest came to visit, he questionned the fact they had not had a child to baptise for two years and asked why not. They were totally honest with him The priest responded to them by saying," so you have both decided to go to hell". She had six more children, all with the same degree of difficulty as before. Yes, she survived. I can tell you however, things have now changed for that couple.They have VERY little use for the church today.After their children grew up they moved away from the church. Yes, you will be very quick to remind me that this is an isolated case, and what about all the other ones and so on.This is not an isolated case.My parents had 3 children.They never used any form of birth control. Each year when the priest came to visit that was one of the first questions he would ask. Why have we not had any baptisms from this home for so many years? My mother would be very quick to tell him they were doing nothing to prevent pregnancies.All this to say that this is the rule my friend not the exception.So when you say that once a decision is made by the Pope or the Vatican, even those who don’t agree bow to the will of Christ, I am not so sure that reflects reality. That is my experience anyway.NLM

 

[JudieK]

NLM- all I can say is “WOW!” I have NEVER heard of a priest interrogating a couple as to why they do not have any more babies to baptize! That seems outrageous… grilling people LOOKING for sin! That would be like a priest going up to someone who just bought an expensive car or house and saying “You must be stealing money from work!” I’m not saying it didn’t happen… I’m sure years ago it did. I can’t imagine it now. EVERYONE has sin. It is on their soul to repent, confess, and reconcile with God. If they continue in their sin and receive the sacraments, that is on their soul, too, and they must face God and account for it. It is not for us to condemn others.

Certain sins show themselves for all to see… for example, using birth control might result in small families. But then, all the hormones and chemicals in the food we eat might be responsible for more women having menstrual and reproductive problems that make conception difficult. We can’t see into people’s wombs or their bedrooms, thank goodness! So we must not judge! And the seemingly “perfect” person who has no obvious sin, who volunteers at church, and is an overall great person may have the biggest sin of all, but we just don’t know it! Maybe they are cheating on their taxes, underpaying their employees, looking at child pornography, etc. In my hometown, a seemingly wonderful husband, father, neighbor, employee and parishoner turned out to be the notorious “Bike path rapist” who had preyed on, raped, and murdered several women in the area over a 20-year period. No one knew! No one suspected! So I’ll go with Jesus and say “let him without sin cast the first stone.”

I have NO PROBLEM with Rome putting out directives for us to follow. A church SHOULD lay out the standards of morality!!! Set the bar high, and expect me to follow it! If I don’t, it’s on ME… the church did it’s part by sheparding me properly. If I fail, I fail… but certainly I don’t want the Church to confirm me in my sin- the Church should CONTINUE to teach and preach the truth, and hopefully, eventually, I’ll GET IT. There is no perfect person… everyone stuggles with something. I know I fail, but I don’t want the church to change ONE BIT of its teachings to accommodate my lack of ability to follow. I want the Church to continue to challenge me to be better. Then, hopefully, when I have mastered that sin, I will be in a position to mentor and help others struggling with it. The Church Militant, clawing its way to heaven and helping pull its fellow members out of the muck, too. We all in it together.

I agree with the statement that Tradition not opposed to the Holy Spirit. One of my professors defined Tradition as the Holy Spirit working though the Church through history. I like that definition. Tradition is the work of the Holy Spirit operating through man (the Church) over time. And as we spiral ever closer to the coming of Jesus, we are enlightened and enriched by all that the Holy Spirit has done before our particular time, in the minds and hearts of all the Christians that preceded us. And doesn’t that make sense? If the Holy Spirit is alive and at work in US, it was also alive and at work in the Christians BEFORE US, too… and what it accomplished then should be preserved- not as mere “traditions of men,” but as Sacred Tradition- that which God has revealed and accomplished through His Church that we now “hand on” to the next generation.

 

[JRKH]

Let me start by saying when I say Rome, of course I mean the Vatican and more specifically the Pope. I thought that would be understood. Falling short and being sinners is VERY human there is no doubt but what I am speaking about are couples who are making a conscious decision to limit pregnancies, contrary to what is directed by the Pope. First of all, at the altar, in the sight of God, they promised to welcome all the children God would send them. I mentionned some of these women being on the pill. I could also speak of many others who have had tubal ligations or their husbands have had vasectomies or are using a male form of birth control. If this were not true, Catholic families would consist of the large numbers of children they had years ago. Abstenance is not being practiced and the rhythm method does not work very well for most couples. So, where are the children? Where are the baptisms.Let me tell you the story of a couple I know. They are currently in their late sixties. They were very faithful Catholics.They followed the Church teaching TO THE LETTER. They both came from very traditional Catholic families. Each had 10 to 12 siblings. When they stood at the altar and were married they promised to welcome all the children God would send them as had done their parents before them. After 5 VERY difficult pregnancies and HORRIBLE deliveries, they, together, on the FIRM advice of a physician ,decided that if she was to live and be able to look after her family they should have no more children.She was put on the pill. They REALLY wrestled with this as it went against the teachings of the church. The next year when their parish priest came to visit, he questionned the fact they had not had a child to baptise for two years and asked why not. They were totally honest with him The priest responded to them by saying," so you have both decided to go to hell". She had six more children, all with the same degree of difficulty as before. Yes, she survived. I can tell you however, things have now changed for that couple.They have VERY little use for the church today.After their children grew up they moved away from the church. Yes, you will be very quick to remind me that this is an isolated case, and what about all the other ones and so on.This is not an isolated case.My parents had 3 children.They never used any form of birth control. Each year when the priest came to visit that was one of the first questions he would ask. Why have we not had any baptisms from this home for so many years? My mother would be very quick to tell him they were doing nothing to prevent pregnancies.All this to say that this is the rule my friend not the exception.So when you say that once a decision is made by the Pope or the Vatican, even those who don’t agree bow to the will of Christ, I am not so sure that reflects reality. That is my experience anyway.NLM

This is all very interesting anecdotal information. However it does not change or negate the idea of submission in Council to Official Church teachings which is what I was trying to explain to you. We can talk all day about how members of ANY given church denomination are sinners but none of that changes the official teachings of that church.
I shall try one more time.
In the early councils of the Church there were many things that needed to be hammered out from the Doctrine of the Trinity to Christ’s divinity and so on. There were Bishops at these councils who held varying views on these issues. After much time in prayer, and discussion a decision was made by “The Church in Council”. It would be unrealistic to say that EVERY Bishop in the council came completely around to the same view. It would be more realistic to say that, although Some Bishops still harbored questions on the matter, that these Bishops submitted their will to that of The Church thus maintaining unity.
Compare that to the method of the Protestant communtiy. If a denomination in Protestantism has a major issue where church leadership cannot agree they are more likely to split over the issue than they are to submit their wills to Christ “in Council” for the sake of unity. This has happened in the Lutheren, and the Episcopal Churches over the last decade or so and has happened many many times in the past which is why there are so many different protestant denominations.

This is what I speak of when I say that once the Church makes a determination on a matter, those with doubts submit their own will to the Church. How individuals respond to Church teaching is another subject deserving of it’s own thread.

Peace
James

 

[Church_Militant]

**Church Militant: **

Wow, Forum Master, Greeter, Prayer Warrior, Book Club Member, and more than 20,000 Posts. You are a very busy person. :juggle:Nah, just been here almost as long as the forums have been.

I appreciate your comments regarding my two posts, and respect your dedication to your faith and the Catholic Church.

You are welcome!

You said, “Even if I see a consensus here at CAF, I check it to insure that it is in line with authentic Church teaching.”

You did not comment on some of the most serious issues and questions in my two posts. I would really appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Sorry about that. I must have missed them somehow. I assume that the rest of this addresses those concerns, right?

Claiming that, separated from the stream of tradition which asserts its Divine inspiration, the Bible has no special authority

, is very disturbing. **This statement seems to hold “tradition, which asserts its Divine inspiration,” in a much higher regard than Holy Scripture.**A good question and one that when I discovered the answer to has been a great source of freedom inn the truth, just as Jesus tells us.

The fact is that the Catholic Church has always taught, just as the Bible does, that Sacred Tradition and scripture are equal and complimentary to each other. Despite all the discussions with the host of n-Cs I have talked to I have yet to see a Bible passage that tells us that the Bible claims to be the ultimate and sole authority for all that Christians believe and practice. It’s just not there Anna, though I have seen the modern post reformation interpretations of men that try to support Sola Scriptura but in the end that’s all they are and the Bible never makes that claim. It does speak and show us that the apostles studied and included Sacred Tradition in their inspired writings. I have a couple of articles on my blog about that. Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition.

Tradition? No way!

. . . . .My “journey” has really only just begun. My prayers for God’s Truth, do include the request for the discernment of the Holy Spirit in interpretation of Scripture and understanding Church history.

This presents a most curious irony: the process of shedding some of the Protestant beliefs, condemned by the Catholic Church, has been achieved by an individual, Spirit-led journey—which is also, condemned by the Catholic Church.

I don’t think that’s what the church condemns Anna. A seeker of truth has to commit to truth wherever they find it. It is to teach and disciple others that we are called in the great commission in Matthew 28:18-20, and so it is your seeking that has led you to the authoritative teaching of Our Lord’s Church. Your personal journey is about discovering the truth as taught by the Catholic Church and the whole deposit of faith, and it is the Holy Spirit that guides you. The church does not condemn that.

The Catholic Encyclopedia

has a very enlightening treatment of the Three Fundamental Principles of Protestantism–all considered to be flawed, of course. These two quotes speak volumes about the Catholic view of Protestantism. I posted the link so the article can be read in full context.

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Protestantism
"I. Origin of the Name. II. Characteristic Protestant Principles. III. Discussion of the Three Fundamental Principles of Protestantism: A. The Supremacy of the Bible; B. Justification by Faith Alone; C. The Universal Priesthood of Believers.

. . . . . Moreover, in the course of time, private judgment has ripened into unbridled freethought, Rationalism, Modernism, now rampant in most universities, cultured society, and the Press.

. . . . . By pinning private judgment to the Bible the Reformers started a book religion, i.e. a religion of which, theoretically, the law of faith and conduct is contained in a written document without method, without authority, without an authorized interpreter. The collection of books called “the Bible” is not a methodical code of faith and morals; if it be separated from the stream of tradition which asserts its Divine inspiration, it has no special authority, and, in the hands of private interpreters, its meaning is easily twisted to suit every private mind."

That does add quite a perspective on this Thread: Catechism vs. Scripture. This Catholic article states, very clearly, that the Bible separated from tradition, which asserts its Divine inspiration, has no special authority. As I said…because the Bible never claims such.

   **(Cont'd)

**

 

[Church_Militant]

This brings us to some rather ironic questions: Do you agree or disagree with this Catholic position regarding the Bible? Are you actually allowed to disagree, since that would indicate “individual interpretation”?

Yes I agree with it because I have compared the teachings of the Catholic Church to the Word of God and found it correct. I have never found an authentic Catholic teaching in conflict with the Bible.

This is where are beliefs part ways. I believe that Jesus Christ came as the Word Incarnate. I believe that there is power in the Word of God, given to us as Holy Scripture.

How does it part ways? The Catholic Church teaches the same thing.

Even though “tradition,” through divine inspiration, can shed light on Scripture; I believe God’s word can stand alone

. Contrary to the statements in the above Catholic article, I believe God’s word does have special authority.It can…but it doesn’t, and it doesn’t work when people try to make it do so. That’s one reason that we have so many varied doctrines and interpretations in the last 500 years. Think about it…if the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is accurate, the why has it led to so much error in doctrine?

Hebrews 4:12 (ESV): 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
**
If God’s word is living and active; can we be justified in declaring a Scripture must only be interpreted a certain way? Is that not an attempt to impose finite limits on an infinite God?**

Why not…the New Testament church did**. **That verse does not even remotely infer that the Bible is the sole and ultimate authority for all we believe and practice. It is certainly powerful, as we all know, but that is different from being the basis for Sola Scriptura.

I also believe the Holy Spirit dwells within us, giving us the Spirit of Truth:

John 14:15-20 (ESV): 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Anna

You’ll get no argument from faithful Catholics on that. In fact it is one of the reasons that I returned to the Catholic faith after so long away.

Especially note verse 15 though. Doesn’t that mean that our works play a vital role in our salvation, since with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit there is no salvation for us, which is something that the rest of that passage goes on to say? That’s a very Catholic passage my friend.

 

[imkingdad]

This is all very interesting anecdotal information. However it does not change or negate the idea of submission in Council to Official Church teachings which is what I was trying to explain to you. We can talk all day about how members of ANY given church denomination are sinners but none of that changes the official teachings of that church.
I shall try one more time.
In the early councils of the Church there were many things that needed to be hammered out from the Doctrine of the Trinity to Christ’s divinity and so on. There were Bishops at these councils who held varying views on these issues. After much time in prayer, and discussion a decision was made by “The Church in Council”. It would be unrealistic to say that EVERY Bishop in the council came completely around to the same view. It would be more realistic to say that, although Some Bishops still harbored questions on the matter, that these Bishops submitted their will to that of The Church thus maintaining unity.
Compare that to the method of the Protestant communtiy. If a denomination in Protestantism has a major issue where church leadership cannot agree they are more likely to split over the issue than they are to submit their wills to Christ “in Council” for the sake of unity. This has happened in the Lutheren, and the Episcopal Churches over the last decade or so and has happened many many times in the past which is why there are so many different protestant denominations.

This is what I speak of when I say that once the Church makes a determination on a matter, those with doubts submit their own will to the Church. How individuals respond to Church teaching is another subject deserving of it’s own thread.

Peace
James

TY for a nice reply, Doesn’t scripture also command us to take disputes amongst ourselves to the Church &.or elders of the Church? another reference to an established Church with Teaching Authority…

 

[JRKH]

TY for a nice reply, Doesn’t scripture also command us to take disputes amongst ourselves to the Church &.or elders of the Church? another reference to an established Church with Teaching Authority…

Yes - Mt 18:15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. **17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. **18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Peace
James