Catholic and libertarian? Pope’s top adviser says they’re incompatible

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The problem is, that bit about corporations isn’t something the Libertarian Party teaches. The libertarians sure as heck aren’t going to stop corporations from running everything; they’d consider that interference in the market.
Wasn’t the parable about the Workers in the Vineyard all about respecting contracts and libertarian in tone?

I believe the libertarians’ position is that everyone has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit; it’s a right as long as it doesn’t infringe on the rights of others.
 
Wasn’t the parable about the Workers in the Vineyard all about respecting contracts and libertarian in tone?

I believe the libertarians’ position is that everyone has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit; it’s a right as long as it doesn’t infringe on the rights of others.
And here I was thinking the Workers referred to sinners and the owner was God and wages were heaven.
 
What is libertarianism? Is is a social system? Is it a legal system? Is it an economic system? Is it a moral system? That is the real problem.

For some, it means property rights are more important than individual rights. For others, it means individual rights are more important than societal rights.

And I think that is why this advisor feels that libertarianism is not compatible with Catholicism. It doesn’t talk much about responsibilities. It is more about the I instead of the We. It is another man-centric system instead of a God-centric system.
I think the problem here is

a) Libertarians are poor at explaining libertarianism and very good at being caircatures of themselves. Because they often come across as foamers, some of their truly good arguments are not getting through to the rest of the people. If Libertrarians could learn to admit they’re wrong when they’re wrong, and admit that they don’t know when they don’t know, open minded non libertarians might also be more open to admit that liberariansim is right about certain things.

b) Libertarians live in a siege mentality. Any attack on any aspect of libertarianism is seen as an attack on libertariansim as a whole. Thus libertarians are slow to call their bluff on fellow libetrains when these are wrong, and make themselves ridiculous by defending things that shouldn’t be defended.

c) Libertarians don’t see that certain libertrain heroes are not real heroes for the rest of us. Any Rand for example. I’m sure that many libertrains must even think in private that she’s tedious and boring and predicatble but they will still defend her publically. This leads to a sort of intellectual dishonesty. In the same way, they often don’t genuinely engage in open minded arguments but strike back with a fixed armoury of fixed statements which sometimes makes them seem as if they would fail to pass a Turing Test. Intellectual dishonesty can sometimes be confused with stupidity. I know many libetarians and they’re far from stupid, but they must learn to stop acting as if they were.

d) Libertarians are too enamoured of capitalism as an end to all problems. They then go on to conflate different definitions of capitalism and this often leads to them defending the rights of big corporations even when these are directly opposed to the freedom they claim to be defending.

e) One philosopher said something like “defending a philosophical point when it benefits you is easy, continuing to defend it when it goes against your personal interests is a real test of your conviction”. many libertarians tend to be libertrian only as far as their own interests are concerned. Nobody likes taxes, for example. Libertrains fail to properly explain where their opposition to taxes ceases to be self serving and start to be a moral argument. As long as they fail there, mots people will see them as self-serving freeloaders.
 
And here I was thinking the Workers referred to sinners and the owner was God and wages were heaven.
Same concept, no?

How do the egalitarians react when they hear a parable paying a higher rate per hour to some, especially on the order of 10 times as much?
 
Unlike Marxism, I don’t think there’s a solid universal platform for Libertarianism. I wonder if the Popes advisor recognizes this.

My perspective of libertarianism support equals a break in two-party gridlock… But that’s through an American prospective.
 
…because right now we have elitist left and right wing think tanks creating policies based on feeding the agendas of their financial supporters… It’s like payment for power -either environmental extremism or oil.

It’s all profit based power. All very unGodly, and so is the UN’s version of ‘globalism’. Say no to globalized secular humanism. 😛
 
…because right now we have elitist left and right wing think tanks creating policies based on feeding the agendas of their financial supporters… It’s like payment for power -either environmental extremism or oil.

It’s all profit based power. All very unGodly, and so is the UN’s version of ‘globalism’. Say no to globalized secular humanism. 😛
I agree.
 
I was an enthusiast libertarian in recent years past. Like any other political label, “libertarian” can be pretty broad in its meaning, but in the purist sense of the world, it is definitely not fully compatible with Catholic social teaching. A secular libertarian would ascribe to a “hands off” approach to subjects such as marriage, divorce, and possibly abortion on the basis that it is not their business and that it should be dictated by the individual alone. This is not Catholic teaching. Men are not islands. These subjects are the business of wider society.
I’ve never quite known what to call myself politically. Around some folks I’m “liberal,” though I bet many in my family would drop their jaws at that description. I’ve never been comfortable with Libertarianism though, even though I know many good Catholics who are. But I also know someone very close who is Libertarian, yet Atheist, and we disagree on all the social issues. I know that ultimately, we cannot successfully agree on governance if we don’t agree on basic ground-work for social-ethics, especially something as basic as human dignity and life. It’s a temporary truce only to have the same old issues crop up again. I bolded what you said because that’s my gut instinct on the entire Libertarian project. It’s a house built on sand.
 
Unlike Marxism, I don’t think there’s a solid universal platform for Libertarianism. I wonder if the Popes advisor recognizes this.

My perspective of libertarianism support equals a break in two-party gridlock… But that’s through an American prospective.
The thing that bothered me most when I read the article is that the adviser is said to speak fluent English. I’ll give translators some slack, but this Cardinal must know of the implications of stating views of libertarianism, socialism, conservatism, liberalism, Marxism, etc. to the English-speaking world.
 
Libertarianism and Neo-Liberal economics were actually criticized very heavily in many previous church documents (that I am guessing Ryan must never have read!) such as Pope Paul VI’s encyclical of 1967, in which he refers to:

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_26031967_populorum_en.html
Unbridled Liberalism
  1. However, certain concepts have somehow arisen out of these new conditions and insinuated themselves into the fabric of human society. These concepts present profit as the chief spur to economic progress, free competition as the guiding norm of economics, and private ownership of the means of production as an absolute right, having no limits nor concomitant social obligations
This unbridled liberalism paves the way for a particular type of tyranny, rightly condemned by Our predecessor Pius XI, for it results in the “international imperialism of money.”(26)
Such improper manipulations of economic forces can never be condemned enough; let it be said once again that economics is supposed to be in the service of man. (27)
And also in his 1971 apostolic exhortation:

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_letters/documents/hf_p-vi_apl_19710514_octogesima-adveniens_en.html
nor can he [the faithful Catholic] adhere to the liberal ideology which believes it exalts individual freedom by with drawing it from every limitation, by stimulating it through exclusive seeking of interest and power, and by considering social solidarities as more or less automatic consequences of individual initiatives, not as an aim and a major criterion of the value of the social organization…
So this is hardly surprising.

What does amaze me however is that so-called ‘Conservative’ Catholics (although what is seen to be conservative about Libertarianism is beyond me) in America are perfectly happy to applaud the church when it condemns communism, yet claim that it has no right poking its nose into politics when their own ideology is the object of scorn.

Gets me every time 😉
 
Is Tea Party Catholicism dead? - TIME
**Time - Why Tea Party Catholicism Is a No Go
Pope Francis and the Catholic Church increasingly have little patience with libertarian economic thought: this will clearly pose a problem to some lawmakers in Washington.**
Is Tea Party Catholicism dead as a legitimate political stance within the Catholic Church? That’s what Pope Francis’s close Honduran cardinal-advisor Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga is arguing.
During his keynote address at a June 3rd forum hosted by The Catholic University of America’s Institute for Policy Research & Catholic Studies, Rodriguez—defending Pope Francis’s economic teachings—derided the current economic system for being built on what he called the “new idol of libertarianism.” “The libertarianism de-regulation of the markets and financial market is much to the disadvantage of the poor,” he said. “This economy kills.”
Rodriguez’s blunt assessment of today’s economic system was echoed by American Bishop Blase Cupich of Spokane, Washington. Speaking directly to “Catholics and believers in our country who are challenged by the pope’s words about income distribution, protection of worker’s rights, and the role of governments in regulating the economy both nationally and internationally,” Cupich reminded them that Francis’s teaching was not his alone, but was “tethered to a rich tradition.” In particular, Cupich referenced Benedict XVI’s 2009 groundbreaking social justice encyclical Caritas in Veritate.
 
That’s right Rome…Just keep alienating everyone, even your allies. That’s the way to encourage and instill faith :rolleyes:

As a Theologian I know I am obligated to follow these pronouncements but…It’s getting cringe worthy to watch some of these. It’s PR suicide.

I’m sorry Cardinal, but Absolute Theocratic Monarchy is not coming back as a political philosophy in the western world anytime ever.
There is no obligation on the part of any Catholic to “follow these pronouncements”. The Cardinal was giving a talk at a Conference and was not even in his own country. A talk at a conference is not an example of a Bishop’s authoritative pronouncement. And any actual authoritative pronouncement would only be binding on his own flock.

That being said, his words deserve prayerful consideration which may conclude with agreement or not.
 
What does amaze me however is that so-called ‘Conservative’ Catholics (although what is seen to be conservative about Libertarianism is beyond me) in America are perfectly happy to applaud the church when it condemns communism, yet claim that it has no right poking its nose into politics when their own ideology is the object of scorn.

Gets me every time 😉
There are three sides to Libertarian ideology. The social liberalism, the economic conservatism and the anti-globalization factor.

I don’t disagree with all their ideas.
 
There are three sides to Libertarian ideology. The social liberalism, the economic conservatism and the anti-globalization factor.

I don’t disagree with all their ideas.
All of the sides have moral implications though, and as Catholics, our very salvation is conditional upon embracing the infallibility of Catholic moral authority.
 
All of the sides have moral implications though, and as Catholics, our very salvation is conditional upon embracing the infallibility of Catholic moral authority.
There is no Catholic moral implication that suggests Western economics, law, and culture in general be forced on all peoples globally. Either through the UN or through false intelligence in Middle Eastern nations.

There is no Catholic moral implication that suggests Conservative economic practices will actually create poverty rather than relieve it. In fact the Catholic Church offers no solutions in economics but rather criticizes “unbridled” socialism and Capitalism equally.

The Catholic Church does express moral implications involving Social Liberalism.

…I agree with the Church, and work together with the Church to promote prudential judgements in the first two and obedience with the third.
 
All of the sides have moral implications though, and as Catholics, our very salvation is conditional upon embracing the infallibility of Catholic moral authority.
Well, yes. But in this case, what we are “embracing” is the judgement that there is no economic policy on this earth that will ever be “good enough”. As Catholics, we must always strive to do better. Are there flaws in Libertarian economic thought? Sure there are and the Cardinal is right to point them out. Is there something else out there that is better? Maybe, maybe not. I would say that none of the existing approaches is working any better. If we simply toss out all of the economic policies that don’t match up with Catholic teaching 100%, we would be left with nothing.
 
Libertarianism and Neo-Liberal economics were actually criticized very heavily in many previous church documents (that I am guessing Ryan must never have read!)
I don’t know if Ryan ever said he supports neoliberalism…
 
Neo liberalism supports free trade, open markets, reduced public sector (smaller government), privatization, deregulation.
Yes, but a Catholic can as well, at least up to a point. It’s the philosophical starting points that differentiate Catholicism and liberalism, and much of the reason why people support what you mention is because of a false conception of what it means to be human. AFAWK Ryan shapes his political views from his Catholic faith.
 
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