Catholic and non Beleiver Marrige

[Cojuanco]

Okay, Sir, if what you tell me is correct, that you have rendered your marriage valid, you must know that you are obliged to raise them Catholic if you are reasonably able to. That’s your duty. Not your wife’s. But for the sake of you marriage you are going to have to lay it on the line.

 

[1ke]

How amazing! It’s like a miracle! You were granted a radical sanation (not sanction) without even asking for one! You really should write a book or something.

While atypical, it is certainly possible, especially if the Bishop believed this is what the OP was asking for.

Can.* 1161 §1. The radical sanation of an invalid marriage is its convalidation without the renewal of consent, which is granted by competent authority and entails the dispensation from an impediment, if there is one, and from canonical form, if it was not observed, and the retroactivity of canonical effects.

§2. Convalidation occurs at the moment of the granting of the favor. Retroactivity, however, is understood to extend to the moment of the celebration of the marriage unless other provision is expressly made.

§3. A radical sanation is not to be granted unless it is probable that the parties wish to persevere in conjugal life.

Can.* 1164 A sanation can be granted validly even if either or both of the parties do not know of it; nevertheless, it is not to be granted except for a grave cause.

 

[maryjk]

How about some real life experiences with relevance please? rather than theoratic moralising

I am married to a non-Catholic.

But he respects me and my beliefs.

So we haven’t had a problem with raising our son.

He has been raised Catholic.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Thank you every body for replying,
Last night I phoned our old parish priest from when we were kids. He informed me that shortly after my wife and I were Married when my mother died and my wife, myself, my farther and he had an interview with the dioscen Bishop who was conducting the Requim Mass seeking a dispensation so that I may recieve the Euchrist. This permission was granted to me and I have been partaking in the Eucharist ever since, Last night he informed me that our marriage had recieved a radical sanction at this interview. I was unawrae of this.
So that is good news that I haven,t been committing fornication all this time and living with my girl friend.
May I ask? Is every Baptised person who has enterd into a civil marriage actually living in sin, and committing fornication etc?

So, what do you plan to do from here on out, Matt Guitar Man? You said that convalidation was not an option because you did not want to force your wife to get married in the Church b/c it would be a lie on her part. Now you have a different problem, because the decision was taken away from her and the radical sanation has been granted.

What will you do now? Will you tell her that she is living in a sacramental marriage?

 

[Usige]

Can.* 1164 A sanation can be granted validly even if either or both of the parties do not know of it; nevertheless, it is not to be granted except for a grave cause.

I guess I’ve missed the bolded part every time I’ve read through that section before. I had always assumed that at least one party had to request it. It seemed unusual enough that I had to go look up the reasoning up in my Navarra canon law commentary. Learn something new every day.

 

[1ke]

I guess I’ve missed the bolded part every time I’ve read through that section before. I had always assumed that at least one party had to request it. It seemed unusual enough that I had to go look up the reasoning up in my Navarra canon law commentary. Learn something new every day.

Yes, this would typically be done if it would cause undue stress on the person, such as an uncooperative spouse. Or, in the case of neither knowing about it, for example if a priest forgot to get a dispensation for disparity of cult or some other impediment. The priest could sanate the marriage (through his bishop) without the parties knowing.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Thank you all those who have responded. Obviosly your concern for my marriage state was the correct way to approach my post and has yeilded some great news for me.
My wife has no particular problems with my faith on a personal level. We have baptised our son and she had no problem with that either. As a matter of fact she has often expressed to me that my faith in my particular case can be seen to have very posotve effects on not only me but all so our relationship.
The barrier which is of most difficulty to her is around the Instituitional structures of the Church. Where we live in Australia at the moment a Royal Commission is going on into Child abuse within the Church, Also when the same thing was happening in Irland I followed that very closely and of course disscussed all findings etc within the home. To add to this I went to Catholic boarding school all of my life in regional Australia and to put it mildly some of the disciplanry measures meeted out to me would have the people involved up on a charge these days.
My wife can see the benifits that my faith delivers to me however she has very grave reserves about exposing our son to an instituitional orginisation that seems to have failed so many people on so many levels, to add to this she has been less than impressed with the responses to these problems from the church hirearchy both here in Australia and the Vatican. She feels that they have lost touch with the communities they are ment to be serving and have become selfserving oligarchies with intolerant and submissive attitudes towards those they are ment to be helping.
So when the issue of Catholic education through Catholic schools is raised she has a very stong and real argument that this may not be the best for our son, and is also able to put forward some very good alternatives.
In a nut shell she is not oppossed to bringing up our son Catholic if he learns it in the home and is only exposed to instituitionalised Catholacism under my very close supervision.

 

[Cojuanco]

Matt, I spent my primary school years in Australia. A majority of the time it was in a Catholic school. Part of it was in arguably regional Australia. This was in the late 90s, and it should not be too different now. The worst discipline I ever got was when Sister slapped my hand with a ruler (one of the 30cm ones they made you buy) for I believe a tirade of blasphemy. I was a hellion back then. Rest assured even that is not likely to happen nowdays. If you’re concerned over the state of Catholic education, there are likely opportunities to be involved with the school on a voluntary basis.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Matt, I spent my primary school years in Australia. A majority of the time it was in a Catholic school. Part of it was in arguably regional Australia. This was in the late 90s, and it should not be too different now. The worst discipline I ever got was when Sister slapped my hand with a ruler (one of the 30cm ones they made you buy) for I believe a tirade of blasphemy. I was a hellion back then. Rest assured even that is not likely to happen nowdays. If you’re concerned over the state of Catholic education, there are likely opportunities to be involved with the school on a voluntary basis.

I spent my Education in Catholic boarding schools during the 70,s and eraly 80’s and recieved many benafits however I and many others recieved what can only be described as constant physical abuse, something that my wife and myself agree on that we would never want our son exposed to.

 

[devoutchristian]

I spent my Education in Catholic boarding schools during the 70,s and eraly 80’s and recieved many benafits however I and many others recieved what can only be described as constant physical abuse, something that my wife and myself agree on that we would never want our son exposed to.

I’m pretty sure that corporal punishment is prohibited in modern Australian Catholic schools.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Thank you all those who have responded. Obviosly your concern for my marriage state was the correct way to approach my post and has yeilded some great news for me.
My wife has no particular problems with my faith on a personal level. We have baptised our son and she had no problem with that either. As a matter of fact she has often expressed to me that my faith in my particular case can be seen to have very posotve effects on not only me but all so our relationship.
.

So what does she think about the fact that she is in a Catholic marriage, without her direct consent? Will you tell her that?

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

…Where we live in Australia at the moment a Royal Commission is going on into Child abuse within the Church, Also when the same thing was happening in Irland I followed that very closely and of course disscussed all findings etc within the home. To add to this I went to Catholic boarding school all of my life in regional Australia and to put it mildly some of the disciplanry measures meeted out to me would have the people involved up on a charge these days…So when the issue of Catholic education through Catholic schools is raised she has a very stong and real argument that this may not be the best for our son, and is also able to put forward some very good alternatives.
In a nut shell she is not oppossed to bringing up our son Catholic if he learns it in the home and is only exposed to instituitionalised Catholacism under my very close supervision.

Well, you don’t have to go to Catholic school to be raised a Catholic. And I would agree that children should be exposed to Catholicism under their parents’ very close supervision. After all, it is the parents who are the primary educators of their children, not anyone else. So why shouldn’t you be closely involved in his Catholic experience? Rather than worry about sending him to Catholic school, can you teach him the faith at home? There are some great religious ed programs out there (Faith and Life from Ignatius Press is the best one I know of - don’t know how that works when you live out of the US) that just require you to sit down and read through short instructional chapters with your child.

Is she concerned about your son’s safety? That’s a reasonable thing to worry about, although it would be naive to confine her worries to when he is around the institutional church. It would be wise to be very cautious about who has access to your children, no matter who they are. I’m not sure if that is what you mean by being “exposed to institutional Catholicism” but I’d be just fine with agreeing to always provide “close supervision” (not sure what she means exactly by that either). I’m always with my kids when they are in church, and I don’t entrust my children to anyone just because they are a church representative.

What is it specifically that you want to do for your child, that she doesn’t want you to do?

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

So what does she think about the fact that she is in a Catholic marriage, without her direct consent? Will you tell her that?

I Beleive she has always known and felt that way whether or not it was sanctioned by the church and it is one of the reasons she loves me because I take marriage and our marriage very seriously she often comments that my attitude to marriage stands out markedly from many of our friends.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Well, you don’t have to go to Catholic school to be raised a Catholic. And I would agree that children should be exposed to Catholicism under their parents’ very close supervision. After all, it is the parents who are the primary educators of their children, not anyone else. So why shouldn’t you be closely involved in his Catholic experience? Rather than worry about sending him to Catholic school, can you teach him the faith at home? There are some great religious ed programs out there (Faith and Life from Ignatius Press is the best one I know of - don’t know how that works when you live out of the US) that just require you to sit down and read through short instructional chapters with your child.

Is she concerned about your son’s safety? That’s a reasonable thing to worry about, although it would be naive to confine her worries to when he is around the institutional church. It would be wise to be very cautious about who has access to your children, no matter who they are. I’m not sure if that is what you mean by being “exposed to institutional Catholicism” but I’d be just fine with agreeing to always provide “close supervision” (not sure what she means exactly by that either). I’m always with my kids when they are in church, and I don’t entrust my children to anyone just because they are a church representative.

What is it specifically that you want to do for your child, that she doesn’t want you to do?

Yes this is all tue, however I have huge reservations about exsposing our son to unbrideled secularism which is all the vouge now in the Australian public school system.
And so far no one wants to talk about the ELEPHANT in the room which is the church’s record on sexual abuse.
In my family 4 boys went to the same school over an 18 year period and we have all been contacted by past students who will be testifying in the royal commission.
In my generation in the family there are 19 of us and I am realy the only one who is dedicated to trying to practice the faith in some sort of meaningfull way, in the generation above us there is a priest and a nun, in my generation all except me have married a “Cultural Catholic” I am the only one who has married into a non faith family and I am the only one concerned about sending my child to a Catholic school.
Our family is not unique here and as my wife points out to me it is the failings of dedicated Catholics and the instituition as a whole that is responsable for loosing upto 90% in one generation.
And beleive me with or without the correct church sanctions it is in my very DNA to bring my son up knowing and dedicated to God and I know enough about religion and I am educated enough to know that this can only happen within the Church.
So this is the core of our dillema! with all this evidence in the news day after day, and so obviousely present within my own family how do I convince my wife that a Catholic education within a Catholic school is the best possabile choice that we as parents can make for our son?

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Yes this is all tue, however I have huge reservations about exsposing our son to unbrideled secularism which is all the vouge now in the Australian public school system.
And so far no one wants to talk about the ELEPHANT in the room which is the church’s record on sexual abuse.
In my family 4 boys went to the same school over an 18 year period and we have all been contacted by past students who will be testifying in the royal commission.
In my generation in the family there are 19 of us and I am realy the only one who is dedicated to trying to practice the faith in some sort of meaningfull way, in the generation above us there is a priest and a nun, in my generation all except me have married a “Cultural Catholic” I am the only one who has married into a non faith family and I am the only one concerned about sending my child to a Catholic school.
Our family is not unique here and as my wife points out to me it is the failings of dedicated Catholics and the instituition as a whole that is responsable for loosing upto 90% in one generation.
And beleive me with or without the correct church sanctions it is in my very DNA to bring my son up knowing and dedicated to God and I know enough about religion and I am educated enough to know that this can only happen within the Church.
So this is the core of our dillema! with all this evidence in the news day after day, and so obviousely present within my own family how do I convince my wife that a Catholic education within a Catholic school is the best possabile choice that we as parents can make for our son?

Well, personally, I wouldn’t push THAT issue, at least not from a religious standpoint. I can’t blame her for being concerned about abuse, and I would at least partially agree with her that there have been problems in the Church that have been to blame for much of the falling away of Catholics from their faith. And I would suggest that your own family’s history is evidence that merely enrolling your child in a Catholic school is not enough to result in your child growing up to be a practicing Catholic. But if you feel really strongly about it, you’ll have to consider the non-religious angles. How are the academics at your various school choices? Is there evidence that the public schools will undermine the values that you and your wife share? I’m sure there is information out there that will show that there is just as much a risk of abuse from a public school teacher as from a priest or Catholic school teacher. There is also homeschooling. If your wife is in a position to homeschool - she wouldn’t be providing a Catholic education, but she wouldn’t be a public school either. You could teach the religion part. Actually, I’ll reiterate what I said before. No matter what school your child goes to - whether it be Catholic or public, the best thing you can do to encourage his faith is to practice it with him, and to talk about it and teach it at home. You simply may not be able to convince your wife to send him to a Catholic school. But if that is the case, it is not the end of the world. Children CAN be raised in public schools and still have faith, and children can also lose their faith in Catholic school. Sure, in a public school, they are more likely to be exposed to ideas that conflict with your faith, but then that is already the case for your child, having an atheist mom. You may have to compromise on the school issue too.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Good advice thykingdomcome,
My main issue with the public school system is that during those formative years there is just so much available that debunks God, our present Prime Minister is a vocal Athiest and through the encouragement of the present government the public broadcaster the ABC
night after night trots out Bgrade academics such as Richard Dawkens telling us all that beleiving in God is the equivalent of beleiving in Santa Clause and this is right through the public school system.
My worry is that I can do so much however without taking advantage of the Catholic system I will just be a candel in a hurrican.
My wife for her part is very supportive in lots of ways for e.g she does not have an athiest agenda, she just beleives that beleiving in many aspects of the way God is taught defies all logic and reason she is not one of these Athiest Socialists that beleive that religion is a poisen that weekens and corrupts the human mind. How ever in saying that she does come from a long line of Gypsies her father was actualy born in a Gypsie wagon and she does have her own peculiar belifs about the purpose of life, Karma and lots of other things and has a large repitoire of Gypsie folk tails. And we both thought our particular belifs would be quite complementry, the main issue is the school thing!

 

[JackieMom]

It seems like you came here with a troll agenda regarding child abuse in the Catholic Church.

 

[1ke]

Agree, Jackie. Marriage magically sanated, and child magically baptized overnight. Hmmm…

 

[maryjk]

How ever in saying that she does come from a long line of Gypsies her father was actualy born in a Gypsie wagon and she does have her own peculiar belifs about the purpose of life, Karma and lots of other things and has a large repitoire of Gypsie folk tails. And we both thought our particular belifs would be quite complementry, the main issue is the school thing!

Your wife believes in Karma and you thought that was complementary to Catholicism? Really?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It seems like you came here with a troll agenda regarding child abuse in the Catholic Church.

It just took a little while to come out.



Done with this thread. Hope it dies out soon.