Catholic and Orthodox: Best of both worlds

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KathleenGee said:
I do tend to perceive various Orthodox churches as regional however. I know we have over 20 rites in the Roman Catholic Church. See the purpose of the Papacy again…sacred unity that transcends cultural differences and use of language.
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Lol as long as by “regional” you mean the entire world! The Orthodox Church is on every continent, including Antartica.

Yes, unity transcends cultural differences and use of language. In every place there is an Orthodox Church, the common language of the locals has always been used in the Liturgical services. There is no need to modify the Liturgical cycle to meet the spiritual needs of a culture because the Liturgies of the Orthodox Church meet the spiritual needs of every culture.
 
RyanBlack said:
Actually, the Catholic Church does not have over 20 rites. The Catholic Church is a communion of over 20 (I believe the number is 23) particular churches. Among these churches, there are several different rites, such as the Alexandrian Rite, the Byzantine Rite, the Roman Rite, etc.

As for the Orthodox being regional, far, far too much is made of that, in my opinion, especially considering that the Catholic Church also has its own “regional” churches, such as the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Melkite Catholic Church, and so on. Furthermore, prior to the age of exploration, the Roman Catholic Church herself was regional, being largely limited to western and central Europe. The Orthodox do not have a single bishop who serves as a focal point of unity like the Bishop of Rome, but that does not mean that they lack unity. The Orthodox are unified in faith, and they have an ecclesiastical unity that is expressed in the fact that a Greek Orthodox Christian may commune in a Russia Orthodox parish, and a Russian Orthodox Christian may commune in an Antiochian Orthodox parish, and an Antiochian Orthodox Christian may commune in a Romanian Orthodox parish, and so on.
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I agree with this. It is hypocracy to accuse the Orthodox of nationalism due to having a Greek, Russian, Bulgarian, antiochian church. We have our own national and regional churches.

The Orthodox are accused of lacking unity, but that misses the point the Orthodox make. Maybe rather than asking whether the Orthodox are united, people should ask what kind of unity do they possess and seek? They have unity according to their own theological perspective, even if not according to a western perspective they don’t.
 
jimmy said:
The Orthodox are accused of lacking unity, but that misses the point the Orthodox make. Maybe rather than asking whether the Orthodox are united, people should ask what kind of unity do they possess and seek? They have unity according to their own theological perspective, even if not according to a western perspective they don’t.
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This is a great question. And I agree that it is not a question of administrative unity across nations: really, who cares? I think that the question is about the actual continuity of Orthodox thought through the second millennium until the present day. You cannot reject preach an Orthodoxy that rejects Dositheus and Mohila and claim invariance of one’s own Patrimony or unity with other Orthodox who accept them. However these baroque ideas are swept under the rug in contemporaroy Orthodox catechesis, it is a real problem that has great consequences for Christ’s Church.
 
I read a list of the various rites of the Roman Catholic Church, and found the history of the Roman Catholic Ethiopian Church particularly interesting. I have read, and say this in lieu that within Ethiopian Orthodoxy, they do appear separatist from the RC Ethiopians.

I do not have any disdain towards Orthodoxy.

But when I see Greek Orthodox, which I know is closest to us, I do see it as a Church where if you are of Greek heritage, you would fit in there better.

And when I think of American Catholic, I tend to go back 20 years…to the American Church that dissents from Rome. Certainly the diocese does not or should not.

We have Korean Catholic Church, the Maronite…I grew up in an Italian Jesuit mission church. It does not now have hardly any immigrant Italians in it, but still a good number of Italians.

So the next question is how far to you go out in your own ecclesial tradition where it is universal and then when does it cross over to a more regional one? How far then does the RC maintain a unifying universality and how does the Orthodox Church define itself? My son has a girlfriend and she says she cannot marry outside Orthodox with a Catholic.

I do not have issues with Orthodox theology, but with its invalidation of Catholicism.

I live in a town that is divided by rivers and income, a different feel in each area, and there is alot of diversity of attitude in just the RC parishes here.
 
KathleenGee said:
My son has a girlfriend and she says she cannot marry outside Orthodox with a Catholic.
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To which particular Orthodox Church does she belong? The reason I ask is that I don’t think this is generally true among the Eastern Orthodox. From my understanding (I spent a short time in the OCA, I have some Orthodox friends, and I’ve studied a fair amount of Orthodox teaching), the (Eastern) Orthodox Churches permit their faithful to marry non-Orthodox Christians; however, they do not permit them to marry in a non-Orthodox ceremony. In fact, if an Orthodox marries in a Catholic or Protestant ceremony, he/she is excommunicated.
 
KathleenGee said:
how does the Orthodox Church define itself?

My son has a girlfriend and she says she cannot marry outside Orthodox with a Catholic.

I do not have issues with Orthodox theology, but with its invalidation of Catholicism.
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The Orthodox Church defines herself as the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”.

Mixed marriages are not completely unheard of, but there is the example of women, really teen-girls, Martyrs that have been killed for refusing to marry outside of the Orthodox Faith. It’s hard on the family to have each parent practicing different Faiths and marriage, from what I hear, is hard enough as it is. Catholic / Orthodox or Protestant / Orthodox couples would probably be able to get permission to marry, but Hindu / Orthodox, Muslim / Orthodox or Buddhist / Orthodox marriage wouldn’t ever be a possiblity without the Orthodox party giving up their ability to commune in the Orthodox Church.

I think rather then seeing it as an “invalidation of Catholicism” it may be seeing it as an acknowledgement that the Catholic Church is not the Orthodox Church. The two were one once, but have been two separate Churches for about 1,000 yrs now.
 
RyanBlack said:
In fact, if an Orthodox marries in a Catholic or Protestant ceremony, he/she is excommunicated.
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Wouldn’t that be a problem for a Catholic / Orthodox couple because aren’t marriages considered “invalid” by the Catholic Church if a Catholic gets married outside of a Catholic Church or without a Catholic priest? “Invalid” marriages today = easy annulment tomorrow, right? And wouldn’t an “invalid” marriage automatically excommunicate the Catholic?
 
KathleenGee said:
To edit here, then the universal Catholic Catechism in the context I gave in this post indicates the working of the Holy Spirit…one, holy, catholic (universal), apostolic…Wouldn’t it???
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Was there no Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church before the Catechism was written then?
 
1Tim215Mommy said:
Wouldn’t that be a problem for a Catholic / Orthodox couple because aren’t marriages considered “invalid” by the Catholic Church if a Catholic gets married outside of a Catholic Church or without a Catholic priest? “Invalid” marriages today = easy annulment tomorrow, right? And wouldn’t an “invalid” marriage automatically excommunicate the Catholic?
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Catholics may marry outside of the Catholic Church with permission from the bishop. In cases where a Catholic is marrying an Orthodox, such permission will almost certainly be granted.
 
1Tim215Mommy said:
Wouldn’t that be a problem for a Catholic / Orthodox couple because aren’t marriages considered “invalid” by the Catholic Church if a Catholic gets married outside of a Catholic Church or without a Catholic priest? “Invalid” marriages today = easy annulment tomorrow, right? And wouldn’t an “invalid” marriage automatically excommunicate the Catholic?
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The Catholic party would need a dispensation from their Catholic Bishop in order to not marry in a Catholic ceremony (at least that is the case for a Catholic and Protestant being married in a Protestant ceremony.) I believe they also have to promise or there must be a reasonable expectation or something that the children will be raised Catholic. There might also need to be a Priest or Deacon there? Maybe no? Anyone, anyone?
 
KathleenGee said:
My son has a girlfriend and she says she cannot marry outside Orthodox with a Catholic.
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As Ryan said, that’s not terribly common even among Orthodox. But anyhow, it wasn’t too long ago that devote Catholics would have blanched at the thought of a Catholic marrying, say, a Baptist, so …
 
My Mother-in-Law is Catholic and my Father-in-Law is Jewish for the record.
 
He told me about some differences…that she could only marry Orthodox but she is not into the schism. So I assume, Ryan, that she means she would be excommunicated if she married in a Catholic church. She lives in Georgia near Russia.

He just got in the door. She cannot marry outside Orthodox, her priest would not permit it.

Nicea…I see both Catholic and Orthodox as one, holy,catholic, and apostolic. Our creed was set by 100 AD, then further defined in Council of Nicea. Our faith is transmitted through the successors of the apostles. May be RC would not have liturgical abuses if the Orthodox and RC remained one way back then.

I am in no schism with Orthodox. They may see me in whatever way, but where I am in my faith, and see both as the Universal Christian Church as Christ founded it.

I ask the following for people like me who do not know much about Orthodoxy.

How is, let us say, Greek Orthodox in relation to Orthodoxy vs a Korean Catholic parish in relation to the Catholic Church? Is the Greek Church ‘farther away’ from the Orthodox Church or is Orthodoxy…and I am already seeing the number of regional Orthodox Churches as Jimmy was pointing out… How better can we get over this hurdle of misunderstanding?

I am having trouble with boundaries, have some knowledge of the different patriarchs.

I ask again, is there less separation or ethnic expression in a Korean Roman Catholic parish, or a Vietnamese RC parish, for example, art, music, environment, some minor movements of the Mass vs the Greek Church in the same context with the rest of Orthodoxy? I am not inclined to worship in a parish with immigrants using their vernacular language and so on. Again, I am simply not inclined to worship there. I simply make this comment to affirm different cultures wanting to define their own local or regional church.

Can we say that the Holy Father is truly the unifying point? I know John Paul II wanted so much reunification. He went to Greece and was not welcomed there…if I read it right…due to what the Normans did during the Crusades…correct me here.

Is there a need for greater forgiveness…I only know so much…on the part of the Orthodox to forgive us? JPII already asked for forgiveness.
 
Well, going back then what needs to be clarified is how they define unity as dvdjs and Jimmy said.

How do Orthodox then, define unity?

I know a lady who has contributed alot to the local church. Her dad is Orthodox and her mother is Roman Catholic, and she just shakes her head.

Me, too.

I know a Greek lady and we are on the same plane…so none of us are in the schism.

It is also time for me to take a break and get back to prayers and see what son is doing in the kitchen.

God bless all of you tonight.
 
RyanBlack said:
To which particular Orthodox Church does she belong? The reason I ask is that I don’t think this is generally true among the Eastern Orthodox. From my understanding (I spent a short time in the OCA, I have some Orthodox friends, and I’ve studied a fair amount of Orthodox teaching), the (Eastern) Orthodox Churches permit their faithful to marry non-Orthodox Christians; however, they do not permit them to marry in a non-Orthodox ceremony. In fact, if an Orthodox marries in a Catholic or Protestant ceremony, he/she is excommunicated.
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It is highly discouraged, especially for cradles. It is not a doctrinal issue, but we know how difficult it is for a family to be split in their faith. And the chances for the Orthodox spouse from leaving the faith is high.
 
KathleenGee said:
So there is no Orthodox catechism that compiles all the beliefs of Orthodox, correct?..no comparable to the Catholic Catechism of the Church, that appeals to multitudes of cultures, ethnics, languages all over the world…that can unify.

The position of the Holy Father is to represent the unity and communion we are called to.

To edit here, then the universal Catholic Catechism in the context I gave in this post indicates the working of the Holy Spirit…one, holy, catholic (universal), apostolic…Wouldn’t it???
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Our Liturgy affirms our dogmatic faith.
 
KathleenGee said:
I would say the unifying factor is Christ Himself.

Liturgies reflect local ecclesial traditions. I have gone to Maronite liturgies, have witnessed communion recited in Aramaic, Our Lord’s language, as well as music, bells, and other minor rubrics.

Sunday Mass is Resurrection Sunday, and it is the day we must come together to profess our living faith in Him.

But the faith and communion is the same.

Likewise I am aware of local catechisms as the case here in the USA, its purpose pastoral.
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The Liturgy reflects what our beliefs in Christ are. To say just “Jesus” can mean anything, it can mean we are unified with Catholic, Protestants, SDA, LDS, etc. But as the Apostles said, do not believe in a Jesus other than the one they are preaching. Our Liturgy affirms all our dogmatic beliefs about Jesus Christ.

Think about this. When the Turks overran Constantinople, the Orthodox Church there were severely limited in what they can do. They can’t even open seminaries, many priests were uneducated. All they had was the Liturgy.

In Russia during the Soviet era, the same thing happened. The Orthodox were limited in what they can do. Priests were not allowed to teach and to preach, even the homilies were prepared speeches that favor the Soviet government. The only thing the Orthodox were allowed to have was the Liturgy.

Guess what, the faith survived both brutal eras. We couldn’t have a Catechism even if we wanted to because of those circumstances. But the Orthodox have exemplified what “Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi” means. Everything in our Liturgy is dogma, if we profess something in common worship of God, then it is dogma. It is as simple as that.
 
RyanBlack said:
Catholics may marry outside of the Catholic Church with permission from the bishop. In cases where a Catholic is marrying an Orthodox, such permission will almost certainly be granted.
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😃 Potential Problem is Solved! 😃
 
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