Fair enough, I’m out. Course I suspect I’ll be dragged back in but again.
No doubt you will. 
But maybe in the meantime Peter will “drop back five and punt” (as we used to say), too, and the renewed exchange might just have the chance of having some coherence.
I just wish more of my fellow Catholics understood that as well as you appear to. (Actually, I can think of some of your fellow Orthodox who could stand to understand that better as well … but I don’t want to harp on them as they aren’t here.)
Hi thequietsinger. No problem. But I want to clarify that when I said “but I don’t want to harp on them as they aren’t here” the “them/they” wasn’t referring to Orthodox in general, but rather to some Orthodox I’ve known who think that Rome is still pushing for a new Union-of-Brest-type-union.I’m not trying to cause trouble here, I promise, but one question. Why are you saying that we should “understand that” when in time, there is always a (not the) possibility of the Churches uniting again? Also, why would you harp on us in the first place? Just because we aren’t posting anything doesn’t mean we aren’t observing.
O Kay… I’m going to do just as I said and leave this alone. Especially since frjohnmorris is here, a man of the cloth and I believe we should be on our very best behavior.
Ah, I see now. Thanks for clearing that up, and for being so understanding! I appreciate it!
This tug of war was more evident in 1054 AD. The council of Florence was an attempt of Rome to correct something that was clearly not ready for both sides to give us this union. Rome has to understand the East better if they want this union. I often referred to the events of 1054 AD in a lighter tone since the only officials that were effected were the highest officials. In truth there was never any schism that actually broke any Church away from each other even though on the books it tells us otherwise. But was any of this a schism or was it really pointing to us two “parties” or two “children” that needed time to grow up. All these events from the past indicated that the top officials were effected and the laity who composed the greater part of the Church were not directly involve at all. The problem with Roman and Orthodox history was the involvement of only their top bishops fighting it out. Since the Laity were not involve you cannot say for sure that a true schism had occurred. The prospect of Laity involvement has only occurred in this past century. Why? So to reverse the effects of what the failures of our Bishops could not do. And what was that? To finally accept each other as brothers and sisters whose differences are just as important as our similarities.
Father it is right to say that you are an Orthodox priest? If so than you have discovered the way Catholics are brought up within their Mass. The average lay Catholic would not know of Mary within the confines of their Liturgy which is called the Mass. The life of Mary and asking her help is often done outside the Mass. Now I am talking here about the normal week to week Mass. The Catholic is only taught so much within the confines of their own Mass which means they have to get it (all the other necessary teachings)elsewhere. That is why there is a larger Catechism program from their early years so as to prepare them for their celebration of the Mass. In the Orthodox Church there is way much more in what they give out than what the Mass gives out so that the Liturgy does act like a catechism program to the Orthodox. Any Orthodox who faithfully attends to their Liturgy only will always know more than any Catholic who only attends to their Mass.
Yes that is true about such events. The problem stems though from the fact that the Laity were not informed as much as the clergy. I see these developments Father more as “growing up” pains even though they were pretty tough growing up pains. I sense the Orthodox were hurt a lot during this time and sadly continues this hurt to this day. I wish though we would get over the hurt since hurts can be used to further the Glory of God if we only accept that what happened in the past were from men who could not share Him. I honestly believe that the events of the past even though brought much hurt and pain can actually be used to further the will of God into our eventual brotherhood with each other. I believe that there must be a reason why God made East and West so different from each other yet sustaining the same power and witness of the Sacraments. Perhaps these misunderstandings and misconceptions of the past were very evident as history as shown us but I sense we have grown out of this type of behaviour to reveal a more mature sense of belonging hopefully for each other. God will use pains and hurts sometimes so that a better good will come forth.
That is very interesting. I see your point. Catholics have had a lot more freedom to teach outside of the Mass than Orthodox have had. Most of our history we were under Muslim, Turkish or Communist domination and did not have the luxury of doing much more than worship. Orthodox have a strong commitment to the principle of Lex orandi, lex credendi.the law of prayer is the law of belief. You will notice that the phrase is in Latin. That must mean that we got the concept from the West. Orthodox express and teach their doctrine trough our liturgical texts, because more often than not that was the only way that we could do it. If you have ever read Byzantine services, you will notice that there are frequent references to “Our all holy, immaculate, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary.” There are also always hymns to Mary in every service.
I am also Antiochian and I wish to extend my greetings to you Father. Just to let you know Father that hymns in the Western Church do not signify as been part of the Mass. The hymns were added later on in the historical development of the present Mass. The actual wording of the Mass is what the Mass is really composed about and it is here where the actual amount of time is way shorter than what a Divine Liturgy has. In the past those moments of the Catholic Mass which had the Introit, gradual, offertory, communion and post communion sentences were the only hymns of prayers used during the Mass. That is why in the Catholic Church you can have a said Mass which can last only half a hour. Today now there is often 2 to 3 hymns to make the Sung Mass somewhat longer.
AMEN!!!What the Catholic Church needs is a Pope Pius XIII, to restore our beloved church, and correct the many errors of the pastoral Vatican II council.
Sveti Ante.
Chimo–I am only a simple lay Catholic woman–but when I mentally pictured these two church bishops on their mutual high horses, almost like little boys with pop-guns–and excommunicating each other out of spite–I have to admit I laughed a little. Isn’t it kind of ridiculous that a church could be split apart by such behavior on the part of what are supposedly grown men?
The mutual excommunication was lifted in 1965, although I don’t believe all the EO Churches recognize its validity.
I would question whether it matters much if they do or not … Cardinal Humbert died over 900 years ago, so his excommunication by the Patriarch of Constantinople is pretty much academic.
What happened in 1965 was only symbolic.It was a photo op and not much more.The only way that reunion can be achieved is through serious and honest discussions of the issues that divide us. I may be wrong, but I think that on many issues we are divided by the terminology each uses not on actual doctrine. Florence tried to go to fast. Reunion will take time, because there are real issues that divide us. I stumbled into what could have become a debate over celibacy when I defended married priests on this site, but backed off, because I am not here to cause problems. There is an active North American Roman Catholic Orthodox Dialogue, as well as an international Orthodox Roman Catholic Dialogue. I was an Orthodox representative to the North American Orthodox Lutheran Dialogue. It was a waste of time, because the Lutherans changed during the dialogue. They were not the same Church we began with because a new generation of Lutheran theologians surrendered to the feminists and gay rights advocates. Finally, the Lutherans pulled out of the dialogue because we made it clear that we were unwilling to compromise on issues like abortion and women’s ordination. We also made it clear that the dialogue would be finished if they ever allowed same sex marriage and the ordination of openly practicing gays and lesbians. Shortly after they pulled out of the dialogue, the Lutherans approved both. At least on these hot issues Orthodox and Catholics agree. That gives us something to build on. We also agree on the Sacraments and on most issues concerning Mary. For example, although we do not accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, we do teach that Mary was sinless and that she was prepared by God to become the Birthgiver of God from birth so I am not sure that we are not affirming the same doctrine but using different terminology. We certainly believe in the Assumption of Mary, but also believe that she actually died and then was then assumed body and soul into Heaven.
I saw that, and appreciate that, I just wanted to make sure it was extra clear. Since I was the OP, I wanted nothing to be up for interpretation.Not that this is a competition (or is it?
(emphasis added) Of course, conversely we could say “Even the Orthodox don’t propose that the Western-Rite Orthodox should be the model for a future union between Rome and Orthodoxy” … although I admit that the parallel is rather weak, since the Orthodox never really did push for that as the model.
While true, I still don’t think we’re on the same page. There is one quote that seems to come up every once in a while (always posted by a Catholic) from some Cardinal or another saying that Constantinople needs to bring Russia under control if union is going to happen. This indicates a complete misunderstanding of how the Orthodox Church works, of course.
Wait, if you get more instruction than a Roman Catholic because your liturgy is longer than their mass, does this mean those of us in the Coptic Orthodox Church get more instruction from our liturgies than either of you?
Maybe that explains why I didn’t have a formal period of catechesis. They just said “keep showing up, keep asking questions over the agape meal”…and I did…and, well, you can see how that turned out.