Catholic and Orthodox reunion

[chimo]

Chimo–I am only a simple lay Catholic woman–but when I mentally pictured these two church bishops on their mutual high horses, almost like little boys with pop-guns–and excommunicating each other out of spite–I have to admit I laughed a little. Isn’t it kind of ridiculous that a church could be split apart by such behavior on the part of what are supposedly grown men?

The problem with East and West was a failure to recognize who the other was and to accept that each Church has their right to be. Differences in Church teachings were in my book all right but to these men it wasn’t. They fought over something that really needed to be done and what was that. It was simply to let the other to be. I believe at the time of these disagreements that our Church both East and West were just coming into their own makeup and what I call personality and characteristics that would make them come into their identities and eventual maturity. At the time of their disagreements are what I called very immature times that caused brothers to dislike each other. I am referring here to theological expressions and not of external political expressions. Our theologies were just coming into their own distinct expression which would take a lot more time before our “maturities” set in. I see the Church as not split up even though history and the books record it. I see it more as a development that was necessary for both our identities and our theologies to be brought forth as we see it today. In other words I do not see the Church, for instance Orthodox or Catholic as been split up rather I see because of these lack of contacts from those years that these disagreements came that our own behaviours have since steadily believe that we were split up. We believe it to be so because we are told it to be so. But in reality there is really nothing that really separates us except these lack of contacts. If anything is to be true is the more we would learn about the other the closer we would come together. In other words this so called schism in my eyes is only our own lack of who the other is. All of this (Orthodox and Catholic relationship) will end tomorrow if we will only learn about each other. Wounds will never replace the honest curiosity of knowing what God is doing in each of His Churches both Orthodox and Catholic. It is on this principal which men have failed miserably from the past and to what we need to do today if this unity is to come.

You are right about these men from the past however as I see it the right time for discovering each other is now and not back then. It was not the right time and sadly later on politically minded men made it more difficult. But the time has passed into our time when spiritually minded mature Orthodox and Catholics can discover each other for the first time and come to know each other as brothers and sisters of the same apostolic structure. Here I am referring to our Laity which now has this opportunity to know more than ever before.

 

[chimo]

Wait, if you get more instruction than a Roman Catholic because your liturgy is longer than their mass, does this mean those of us in the Coptic Orthodox Church get more instruction from our liturgies than either of you? Maybe that explains why I didn’t have a formal period of catechesis. They just said “keep showing up, keep asking questions over the agape meal”…and I did…and, well, you can see how that turned out.

(For reference, if anyone does not know, the average liturgy of St. Basil as celebrated in the Coptic Orthodox Church runs roughly 3 hours…more if you count the raising of the incense which runs about 30-45 minutes, which we definitely do. It is longer than the Eastern Orthodox or other churches’ services because we have more readings and our chants are very long compared to most other churches.)

You can receive more if you are attentive to all what is done. It takes time to receive it as you attend to it regularly but it grows on you if you are listening and participating. I also attend to a Coptic Liturgy once a month at my Church as a Coptic priest comes over to minister to the local Coptic congregation who uses my Church to celebrate. I do realise their longevity as I always comment those who ask me how long is the Coptic service and I tell them have they ever seen the movie “BenHur”. Your liturgy was a pleasant surprise to me and I was happy to be part of it.

 

[JJ452]

Not even Rome thinks that’s a good model anymore. Thanks, but no thanks.

And how do you know what Rome thinks sir/maam? Can you give me some references?

Thank You

 

[chimo]

And how do you know what Rome thinks sir/maam? Can you give me some references?

Thank You

The Balamand Statement of June 1993 has agreed that Rome would never try to bring into the Orthodox into the same relationship as did the Eastern Catholics. The Orthodox and the Catholic Church together drew up this statement.

 

[JJ452]

So in the same sentence you speak of “the many errors of the pastoral Vatican II council” and “our beloved church” (emphasis added).

Does anyone see something wrong with this picture?

As already noted, Vatican II Council was a pastoral council, not a dogmatic one. The basic elements of VII was to update, purge outdated disciplines, and it redefined certain things. However…many people, including clerical, misinterrupted much of the message of VII. It must be emphasized that Vatican II did NOT, in any way, shape or form change any dogmatic teachings of the Church. Again it was a pastoral councul, not a dogmatic one. Any errors lie in the perception of the people, not the council. Therefore our beloved Church had people who strayed, just as some had strayed in all previous councils.

Thank You

 

[JJ452]

Starrsmother:
I don’t think he would need to or be expected to step down. The pope is also the Patriarch of the West. He is the pope, the bishop of Rome, & the Patriarch of the West. And Frances is placing more emphasis as him being the bishop of Rome; so I think we’re getting somewhere. The Latin patriarch of Jeruselem would have to go; as the West has only one patriarch…that of Rome.

Thank You

 

[5Loaves]

Father bless.

I noticed that several posts have a picture of Our Lady with a message at the bottom. I just want to make a passing observation. I recently attended a Catholic Mass at the local Catholic school. I am invited to attend special Masses there because most of the youth of my parish attend the school and several of the teachers are members of my parish.

How refreshing it is to hear that you have this relationship with the school. Many Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic children aren’t as fortunate to have their own traditions validated in their schools in such a way.

But back to the point. The order of the Mass and much of the text was almost identical to the Orthodox Liturgy, especially since the adoption of the new English translation, but one thing that I noticed was that there was no invocation of Our Lady. The Orthodox Liturgy contains many mentions of The Mother of God. There is always a hymn to Mary immediately after the consecration. It just struck me as odd that the Mass did not contain any direct invocation of Our Lady. Is that the normal Catholic practice?
There are special hymns to Mary for Feast Days, but the most commonly used invocation is
It is truly meet to bless thee O Theotokos who art all blessed and all blameless and the Mother of our God
More honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious than the Seraphim, thou who without corruption bearest God the Word and art truly Theotokos, we magnify thee.

Archpriest John W. Morris

There is certainly nothing in the Roman Rite similar to the degree to which we commemorate the Mother of God in Divine Liturgy. I wouldn’t say that means she is less honored in the Western Church.

There is one place in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite where the Theotokos is remembered. (I’m not familiar with the prayers in the Extraordinary “Tridentine” Mass".) After the words of institution the priest says “The Mystery of Faith” and the people proclaim one of the three possible Memorial Acclamations. In the prayers which follow the priest prays that we may be granted a place in heaven, with words such as “…May he make of us an eternal offering to you, so that we may obtain an inheritance with your elect, especially with the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, with your blessed Apostles and glorious Martyrs”, again, there are a number of options of which this wording is one.

Recently the Holy See decreed that the name of Saint Joseph, Spouse of the Blessed Virgin Mary, should be inserted into Eucharistic Prayers II, III, and IV. Several local priests have prayed “that with the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, with blessed Joseph, her most chaste Spouse,” in every Mass I have been in with them over the years. It’s interesting that Joseph, so important in the West, is not typically commemorated in the East. Likewise John the Baptist so prominent in the East is largely absent liturgically in the West. For me, it’s part of the benefit of sharing in a complementarity of East and West.

 

[Aramis]

The Mass in its entire length is way shorter than the Divine Liturgy.

Not always true - some of the village OCA parishes have it down to about 50 minutes, plus the separate matins service. They rattle off the hymns at about 150-180 BPM, take only the minimum repeats, use the shorter form of one of the litanies, and only use one troparion and one kontakion. One deacon incenses while a second receives the blessing to begin the 1st ektenia. Meanwhile, the priest and deacons are rattling off at speed behind the iconostas.

I’ve experienced the Ruthenian DL of St. John at about 50 minutes - two priests giving communion shaves 5-10 minutes, using the shorter form of the one ektenia that allows it (No “Grant it, O Lord” verses).

The typical Roman Sunday liturgy is about 1 hour; it feels rushed below 40 minutes. But the Romans do not usually take the hours as communal prayers immediately before, tho’ many places do have a rosary which ends 5-10 min prior.

 

[Starrsmother]

Not always true - some of the village OCA parishes have it down to about 50 minutes, plus the separate matins service. They rattle off the hymns at about 150-180 BPM, take only the minimum repeats, use the shorter form of one of the litanies, and only use one troparion and one kontakion. One deacon incenses while a second receives the blessing to begin the 1st ektenia. Meanwhile, the priest and deacons are rattling off at speed behind the iconostas.

I’ve experienced the Ruthenian DL of St. John at about 50 minutes - two priests giving communion shaves 5-10 minutes, using the shorter form of the one ektenia that allows it (No “Grant it, O Lord” verses).

The typical Roman Sunday liturgy is about 1 hour; it feels rushed below 40 minutes. But the Romans do not usually take the hours as communal prayers immediately before, tho’ many places do have a rosary which ends 5-10 min prior.

Someday when I am somewhere that there’s an orthodox church, I’ve simply GOT to attend one of their services! I’ve never been to one and find this all interesting!

 

[Aramis]

Someday when I am somewhere that there’s an orthodox church, I’ve simply GOT to attend one of their services! I’ve never been to one and find this all interesting!

PM me, and I can point out where the main ones are.

The old believers (outside those in Nicolaevsk) have some hidden parishes in the suburbs of Anchorage.

If you’re in Anchorage, St. Nicholas of Myra on 22nd and Arctic is Catholic, but uses the same liturgy as the Orthodox do. (Slightly different translation.)

 

[Peter_J]

I saw that, and appreciate that, I just wanted to make sure it was extra clear. Since I was the OP, I wanted nothing to be up for interpretation.

While true, I still don’t think we’re on the same page. There is one quote that seems to come up every once in a while (always posted by a Catholic) from some Cardinal or another saying that Constantinople needs to bring Russia under control if union is going to happen. This indicates a complete misunderstanding of how the Orthodox Church works, of course.

Interesting. I don’t know what Cardinal would have said that, but I admit it’s a pretty bizarre idea. If you can find the precise statement please post it.

 

[Peter_J]

As already noted, Vatican II Council was a pastoral council, not a dogmatic one. The basic elements of VII was to update, purge outdated disciplines, and it redefined certain things. However…many people, including clerical, misinterrupted much of the message of VII. **It must be emphasized that Vatican II did NOT, in any way, shape or form change any dogmatic teachings of the Church.
**

I certainly don’t have any problem with you emphasizing that. I believe it should be common knowledge … but a discussion on a public forum (Catholic or otherwise) is far different from e.g. the official dialogues that frjohnmorris was talking about, so I guess it makes sense for you to remind everyone of that.

Again it was a pastoral councul, not a dogmatic one. Any errors lie in the perception of the people, not the council. Therefore our beloved Church had people who strayed, just as some had strayed in all previous councils.

Thank You

So can I take it you are disagreeing with the quoted statement from Sveti Ante (“What the Catholic Church needs is a Pope Pius XIII, to restore our beloved church, and correct the many errors of the pastoral Vatican II council.”)? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Nine_Two View Post
Not even Rome thinks that’s a good model anymore. Thanks, but no thanks.

I see chimo responded to this question already. But just out of curiosity I’d like to throw out this related question: What would you think if the Orthodox insisted that WRO (Western-Rite Orthodoxy, for anyone who is reading this and wondering) should be the model for Catholic-Orthodox reunion?

 

[chimo]

Not always true - some of the village OCA parishes have it down to about 50 minutes, plus the separate matins service. They rattle off the hymns at about 150-180 BPM, take only the minimum repeats, use the shorter form of one of the litanies, and only use one troparion and one kontakion. One deacon incenses while a second receives the blessing to begin the 1st ektenia. Meanwhile, the priest and deacons are rattling off at speed behind the iconostas.

I’ve experienced the Ruthenian DL of St. John at about 50 minutes - two priests giving communion shaves 5-10 minutes, using the shorter form of the one ektenia that allows it (No “Grant it, O Lord” verses).

The typical Roman Sunday liturgy is about 1 hour; it feels rushed below 40 minutes. But the Romans do not usually take the hours as communal prayers immediately before, tho’ many places do have a rosary which ends 5-10 min prior.

You have misunderstand my points. The actual wording of a “normal” Catholic Mass is only by admission at least 20 minutes if one says it. When you sing it therefore the length of it is much longer yet the Mass itself is the same amount of time. The Catholic Church can authorize “said Masses” and if you ever attended to one you would know what I mean.

 

[chimo]

Someday when I am somewhere that there’s an orthodox church, I’ve simply GOT to attend one of their services! I’ve never been to one and find this all interesting!

There is a Antiochian Catherdral based in Eagle River, Alaska named St. John’s Cathedral which is under the jurisdiction of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America. There is another Antiochian parish called St. Herman of Alaska Orthodox Church located at Wasilla, Alaska and those selected by Aramis seems inviting as well. St. Herman was canonized an Orthodox saint by the Russian Orthodox Church. He ministered to the native peoples of Alaska when Alaska was still in Russian hands and his story there is very much a saint’s story. I hope you will have an opportunity to see for yourself the beauty of an Eastern Divine Liturgy.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t think he would need to or be expected to step down. The pope is also the Patriarch of the West. He is the pope, the bishop of Rome, & the Patriarch of the West. And Frances is placing more emphasis as him being the bishop of Rome; so I think we’re getting somewhere. The Latin patriarch of Jeruselem would have to go; as the West has only one patriarch…that of Rome.

Thank You

In addition to Rome the West has two other Patriarchs. Venice, and Lisbon. Of course these positions hold no power and they simply go before other Archbishops (but not cardinals) in processions. Though I’m not sure anything would have to change here - there are a few Churches with multiple patriarchs, and it is up to them to decide how responsibilities are divided up.

 

[Nine_Two]

Not always true - some of the village OCA parishes have it down to about 50 minutes, plus the separate matins service. They rattle off the hymns at about 150-180 BPM, take only the minimum repeats, use the shorter form of one of the litanies, and only use one troparion and one kontakion. One deacon incenses while a second receives the blessing to begin the 1st ektenia. Meanwhile, the priest and deacons are rattling off at speed behind the iconostas.

I’ve experienced the Ruthenian DL of St. John at about 50 minutes - two priests giving communion shaves 5-10 minutes, using the shorter form of the one ektenia that allows it (No “Grant it, O Lord” verses).

The typical Roman Sunday liturgy is about 1 hour; it feels rushed below 40 minutes. But the Romans do not usually take the hours as communal prayers immediately before, tho’ many places do have a rosary which ends 5-10 min prior.

In fairness, you’re comparing a rushed Divine Liturgy to a regular Mass. Typically the Divine Liturgy is a fair bit longer than the Mass, which is what I think the point was.

I’m sure even the Coptic Liturgy (I’ve never attended) could be done much faster if it was desired.

Still, I find that somewhat sad that they do them so quickly. Shortly after I converted to Orthodoxy I went to my mother’s church (United Church of Canada). It was over in about 30 minutes. I was left with a feeling of “That’s it?”

 

[Nine_Two]

I see chimo responded to this question already. But just out of curiosity I’d like to throw out this related question: What would you think if the Orthodox insisted that WRO (Western-Rite Orthodoxy, for anyone who is reading this and wondering) should be the model for Catholic-Orthodox reunion?

All Westerners must submit to Antioch!

 

[malphono]

All Westerners must submit to Antioch!

Hey … why do we have to get saddled with them???

 

[chimo]

I see chimo responded to this question already. But just out of curiosity I’d like to throw out this related question: What would you think if the Orthodox insisted that WRO (Western-Rite Orthodoxy, for anyone who is reading this and wondering) should be the model for Catholic-Orthodox reunion?

I don’t think such a model would work either way. The WRO are only attended for congregations from the Protestant and Anglican Churches whose parishes want a more Westernised rite. It was never the attention for WRO to ever include Parishes from the Church of Rome. If though the Orthodox did agree to such a stance I would never be in favor of it. Yet such a stance would never come as both Churches are now moving into a better understanding of each other. If the Orthodox insist on anything is this. The correct model is the one you are in now. That means the Orthodox must respect what is Rome and Rome must respect what is Orthodox. This is now what we are moving towards. The next step is to let the other to be and not to change the other into what you think it should be. This step is very easy but very hard to implement. The next stage would be how to bring both models of East and West together. Quite simply it needs to be shared. The authority of one Church must work with the authority of the other Church. This means the model for this kind of setup resembles more of what a “holy marriage” is. In a holy marriage each person is respected and can contribute to the welfare of such a union. This model is the right model for the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. By the way thank you for your question.