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Peter_J
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I can’t speak for Tomdstone, of course, but I can’t see how you got from “Not true. It was not laity on laity exclusively.” to “Like the pope and the cardinals were smiling at what was happening.”
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Wandile
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Its a reply to not just that post but all his posts about evil Catholic persecution of the innocent Orthodox , painting a picture like the orthodox have not done any of the same.I can’t speak for Tomdstone, of course, but I can’t see how you got from “Not true. It was not laity on laity exclusively.” to “Like the pope and the cardinals were smiling at what was happening.”
That’s how they come across to me at least. And I’m tired of hearing the whole “Catholics killed orthodox” victim cry like the orthodox haven’t done the same to us. Its an irritating trend on the internet.
Can we all please forgive and forget, AND move on as the things happened a while ago.
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frjohnmorris
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I understand that Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac of Zagreb who cooperated with the Ustashi is being considered for canonization. That would cause a major rift between Orthodox and Roman Catholics.
Archpriest John W. Morris
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dzheremi
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It should be noted that in many churches the commemoration of martyrs, either specifically or collectively, often involves remembering circumstances or traditions that are unfavorable to other churches. I know for instance that the Maronites commemorate the alleged massacre of 350 of their monks by “Monophysites” (historian Matti Moosa claims that St. Severus of Antioch and Peter of Apamea are singled out as responsible, due to their hatred of Chalcedon; I haven’t read the letter which the Maronites and Romans claim is evidence of this event, so I can’t say) on July 31 of each year. The historicity of this event is disputed by the Syriac Orthodox (the aforementioned Moosa has a very interesting section on it in his book “The Maronites in History”). So while forgiving is certainly possible (I have yet to meet a Maronite who holds personal enmity toward his Syriac Orthodox brethren, even if the Syriac Maronite Church still commemorates this event as a historical fact), forgetting isn’t in those cases where the disputed and unflattering history is woven into the fabric of what it means to be a ______ (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, whatever) through repeated commemoration and reinforced collective memory. All churches have at least a bit of these. There are some saints commemorated in the Coptic Orthodox synaxarium, which is read aloud at every liturgy, whose stories – if accurate – certainly don’t paint the Byzantines in a good light.
Of course, the point of these is not to demonize those of other churches for the acts of their forefathers, but to provide examples to the faithful of the strength of the faith of their own forefathers, in order to strengthen them in the faith preserved in their church. I can’t say I hold any specific hatred or ill-will toward any Chalcedonian or their church, but to say “forget it, it happened a long time ago” is disrespectful to the memories of the martyrs who our history records died in periods of Byzantine/Chalcedonian persecution. Just as it would be wrong to dredge up every last historical or pseudo-historical reference to wrong-doing in an attempt to “out-suffer” other churches with whom we have had strained relations throughout our history (or place blame for that suffering at their feet in absence of continued open hostilities and violence), it would be wrong to pretend as though we were not in some ways shaped by these conflicts. Whether it’s the Indians taking the Coonan Cross oath to resist the pressure of the Portuguese, or Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats remembering massacres they each blame the other for, or even Roman Catholic Mexicans and Spanish recalling the murder of priests and other faithful by ‘their own people’ (read: by anti-clerical Roman Catholics), these stories are all remembered long past their contemporary lives because they reinforce the message that to be an Orthodox Christian, or a Catholic, means something greater than whatever contemporary concerns we might have; it’s actually joining an unbroken line which includes many who heroically resisted pressure to give up the faith, which of course in each church’s self-conception also ties into notions of exactly what that faith is and why you’re Orthodox and not Roman Catholic or vice-versa (or Orthodox and Muslim, or Catholic and not Hindu, or whatever).
So, no, we’re not going to forget it, and I don’t suggest that Catholics forget their martyrs, either. This doesn’t mean that we can’t forgive, but forget? If Christian martyrs died just to be forgotten, then why on earth do we have so many martyrologies in all of our churches, dating back centuries and centuries? Why do Roman Catholics remember the days of the Catacombs? Why did Coptic Orthodox Christians refuse to allow the blood to be cleaned from the walls of the Church of the Saints in Alexandria after the New Year’s day bombing in 2011? Is it because we love blood and death and feel pride in body counts, especially if it makes another community look bad? Heck no! Perish the thought. It’s because these people died for their faith, and so their commitment to it stands as a testament to the strength of their beliefs against all persecution, even up to death (no matter who is responsible for it). The crown of martyrdom is not won by wimps. It is a testament to love for Christ and fidelity to His commandments as we know them and live them. It’s what Catholic martyrs like Abp. Paulos Faraj Rahho and Rageed Ghanni died for, as well as Orthodox martyrs like Abanoub Kamal (one of the martyrs of Naga Hammadi in 2010).
Forgiveness is best, but forgetting is unthinkable. It is, after all, possible to remember and still love each other despite past wrong-doings.
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Wandile
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I never meant to forget the glorious martyrs and their example. I’m saying forget the pain and bad taste associated with these events. Many have a problem with this. Those who continually demonize the catholic church or whatever communion by always playing the victim card in an attempt to degrade the offender.
It is time people learn to forget everything about the events that brings about the bad feeling towards transgressors. All are guilty of the same crimes. Let us move on and as you said focus on the positive if such events… The martyrs and their examples.
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Tomdstone
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I am not sure that this is true.
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malphono
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It’s a bit off-topic to this thread, but if I may, I’ll offer a comment.
I personally don’t doubt the historicity of the martyrdom of the 350 monks, but I do question who was responsible. To make a claim that Severus of Antioch himself ordered the the massacre seems to me to be quite absurd. It would be akin to saying that the sacking of Constantinople by the Crusaders having been a direct order from Innocent III. There were, undoubtedly, rogues about the Levant, just as there were rogues among the Crusaders.
It reminds me of a little story about the original Maronite church in New York. While the parish existed from 1890, the first permanent church was established in 1902. One little known vignette is that it was burned by an angry street mob after the outbreak of WWI (although I forget in precisely which year). The reason? Simply because the Maronites had come to the US from what was then the Ottoman Empire, carrying Ottoman passports, and ergo some rogue elements considered us to be “Turks” and took out their vengeance on out our little church. To my knowledge, there were no human casualties and we weathered the storm and rebuilt, but the point, of course, is in the rogue element. It wasn’t the US government or the Mayor of New York or anyone else who ordered that the church be burned. It was a bunch of uneducated, overzealous idiots who took it upon themselves to wield a cleansing fire.
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Wandile
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Well out of what you mentioned, murder of the innocent is a common theme between Orthodox and Catholics
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LionHeart777
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@ Tomdstone,
What is your point of bringing up all of these events you are bringing up?
What is your point of bringing up all of these events you are bringing up?
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LionHeart777
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I can relate a bit to what you and Dzheremi are saying. When I was a Protestant and dating my (now) wife, I went to Mass with her on occasion. I remember once around Christmas time the Priest gave an explanation of the song “The Twelve Days of Christmas”, and how it was the Catholic Faith (or part of it I think) in code because at the time Catholics were being persecuted in England. I can’t remember quite how I felt then but did think it was interesting as I had never heard that before. But looking back, I don’t think the Priest was “slinging mud” at Protestants, but just explaining the past and how that song is has a hidden meaning–in order to tell the story it is necessary to put it into context as to why it is hidden I feel.
Dzheremi, what does your name mean if I may ask, or what is the significance?
Dzheremi, what does your name mean if I may ask, or what is the significance?
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dzheremi
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This is more or less the point that Matti Moosa makes in his book, and the point that I have heard from Syriac Orthodox people who are aware of the event. The monks were massacred, but to put the blame on St. Severus is unsupportable and smacks of Chalcedonian polemic (akin to blaming “the Copts” for the murder of Hypatia, and not a band of morons headed by another moron called “Peter the Reader”…not sure if it’s a translation issue or what, but “reader” isn’t some high authority that can order things, good or bad, on behalf of the Church).
How terrible! I haven’t the time to look them up now, but I remember that similar things happened to at least one Assyrian church within the past few years (somewhere in Southern California, where as you know there are lots of Assyro-Chaldean/Syriac people). If I remember correctly, the brain surgeons involved even spray-painted pro-Jesus/anti-Muslim/anti-Arab graffiti on the church building. Obviously they thought they were attacking a mosque, and the “Arabs” who must therefore use it for nefarious purposes…some things never change, unfortunately.
(An aside, to lighten the mood: I was listening to cantor Gad Lewis’ recitation of the Verses of the Cymbals s few years ago on my laptop while at home in California while visiting family; this is all in Coptic, unaccompanied chant as you can hear at the link. My father came into the room, obviously quite concerned, and began questioning me pointedly: “What is that? Oh God…you’re not converting to ISLAM are you? I don’t want that in my house!” Hahahaha. The folks at St. Pishoy here ABQ had quite a chuckle at that when I returned to the area a few weeks later and told them about that…it’s not just a cliche: The West really seems absolutely incapable of understanding the East!)
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malphono
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You got that right. I particularly like the highlighted portion. Somehow I doubt “Chalcedonian polemic” is going anywhere anytime soon.
Yessir … different day, same show.How terrible! I haven’t the time to look them up now, but I remember that similar things happened to at least one Assyrian church within the past few years (somewhere in Southern California, where as you know there are lots of Assyro-Chaldean/Syriac people). If I remember correctly, the brain surgeons involved even spray-painted pro-Jesus/anti-Muslim/anti-Arab graffiti on the church building. Obviously they thought they were attacking a mosque, and the “Arabs” who must therefore use it for nefarious purposes…some things never change, unfortunately.
It really does get tiring after a while.Very cute story.
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AdvocatusVerbum
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I see what you’re saying… but did they lift the ban? IIRC Communion wasn’t restored until well after Photius’ second exile and demise.
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Peter_J
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Good point.
Likewise, as Eastern Catholics we could do a lot “MOPEry” … but quite frankly I can’t say I have a great desire to do it (or listen to it).
Likewise, as Eastern Catholics we could do a lot “MOPEry” … but quite frankly I can’t say I have a great desire to do it (or listen to it).
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Peter_J
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Well, the “Photian Schism” was 863-867. I would assume that when you say “Photius’ second exile and demise” you’re not talking about something that happened in those 4 years.
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frjohnmorris
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That is all right, it took my wife and I an hour to convince my grandmother that we had not become Jewish because we had converted to Orthodoxy.This is more or less the point that Matti Moosa makes in his book, and the point that I have heard from Syriac Orthodox people who are aware of the event. The monks were massacred, but to put the blame on St. Severus is unsupportable and smacks of Chalcedonian polemic (akin to blaming “the Copts” for the murder of Hypatia, and not a band of morons headed by another moron called “Peter the Reader”…not sure if it’s a translation issue or what, but “reader” isn’t some high authority that can order things, good or bad, on behalf of the Church).
How terrible! I haven’t the time to look them up now, but I remember that similar things happened to at least one Assyrian church within the past few years (somewhere in Southern California, where as you know there are lots of Assyro-Chaldean/Syriac people). If I remember correctly, the brain surgeons involved even spray-painted pro-Jesus/anti-Muslim/anti-Arab graffiti on the church building. Obviously they thought they were attacking a mosque, and the “Arabs” who must therefore use it for nefarious purposes…some things never change, unfortunately.
(An aside, to lighten the mood: I was listening to cantor Gad Lewis’ recitation of the Verses of the Cymbals s few years ago on my laptop while at home in California while visiting family; this is all in Coptic, unaccompanied chant as you can hear at the link. My father came into the room, obviously quite concerned, and began questioning me pointedly: “What is that? Oh God…you’re not converting to ISLAM are you? I don’t want that in my house!” Hahahaha. The folks at St. Pishoy here ABQ had quite a chuckle at that when I returned to the area a few weeks later and told them about that…it’s not just a cliche: The West really seems absolutely incapable of understanding the East!)
When the people of St. John of Damascus Antiochian Orthodox Church in Boston bought new property in Newton, a predominately Jewish suburb, the Jews put on a campaign to prevent the building of an Arab Church in their town. Finally at great cost and inconvenience, the parish moved to Dedham where they built their new Church. I remember seeing spray painted on our then newly built St. George’s Antiochian Orthodox Church in West Roxbury, something like “Arabs go home.”
Especially since the birth of radical feminism, not just a band of Coptic monks, but all Christians have been held guilty for the murder of Hypatia. Someone even made a movie of the story that implicated St. Cyril in the incident.
Archpriest John W. Morris
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LionHeart777
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I saw that movie on Netflix a while back I think, Father Morris.
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frjohnmorris
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That is because the title Patriarch has not begun to be used at the time the canons quoted were written. As the Church grew larger the Bishops of the provinces that were originally called Metropolitans because they were the Bishops of the Metropolis or provincial capital began to be called Patriarchs. Eventually this evolved into the pentarchy of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. This division was legally established by Justinian I (527–565), particularly in Novella 131 and the Council in Trullo on 692.
Archpriest John W. Morris
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