Catholic and Orthodox views of the Blessed Virgin Mary/Theotokos

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Is the Immaculate Conception the only significant difference in how the two Churches understand the Blessed Virgin Mary/Theotokos?

From what I gather, the Orthodox Church does not believe in the Immaculate Conception not because of Mary per se, but because the view on original sin is different.

Does the Orthodox Church view Theotokos as a (co)-mediator as well and is there a similar prayer of veneration like The Rosary?

(Lest Catholic members think I’m attacking their faith, I ask because I’m still a bit torn between converting to the RCC or the OC.)
 
There is a Prayer Rule of the Theotokos which is similar to the Rosary and you use the same prayer rope you use for Jesus Prayer.

Also we conclusively believe in the death (or falling asleep) of the Theotokos and her subsequent resurrection into glory by her Son. The West believes in the same way to until the last 30 years or so when there is this growing idea that they do not know whether the Theotokos died or not. Which is just throwing out their own Traditions.
 
ConstantineTG said:
There is a Prayer Rule of the Theotokos which is similar to the Rosary and you use the same prayer rope you use for Jesus Prayer.

Also we conclusively believe in the death (or falling asleep) of the Theotokos and her subsequent resurrection into glory by her Son. The West believes in the same way to until the last 30 years or so when there is this growing idea that they do not know whether the Theotokos died or not. Which is just throwing out their own Traditions.
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The West largely holds that Mother Mary died and was assumed, that certainly seems to be the implication of the dogma even if a handful of theologians recently have raised doubts about this.
 
The Orthodox believe that Mary died (fell asleep,) and was taken to heaven. The Western church has maintained that Mary was assumed into heaven without suffering death. This has been a point of difference, but the Western church seems to be leaning more towards the concept of Mary having died in some form. For instance, I have heard one theory that she effectively experienced death while witnessing her Son die on the cross, and therefore did not need to suffer her own personal bodily death.

The Liturgy of the Orthodox Church offers prayers to Mary (The Theotokos,) throughout.the entire service. She is very much honored and included in the fabric of liturgical life. Morning prayers include prayers and sung prayers to the Theotokos.

I love the Rosary and other Wesern devotions, but Our Lady does not seem to receive a lot of attention in the Mass in our times. .
 
EIF5A said:
Is the Immaculate Conception the only significant difference in how the two Churches understand the Blessed Virgin Mary/Theotokos?

From what I gather, the Orthodox Church does not believe in the Immaculate Conception not because of Mary per se, but because the view on original sin is different.

Does the Orthodox Church view Theotokos as a (co)-mediator as well and is there a similar prayer of veneration like The Rosary?

(Lest Catholic members think I’m attacking their faith, I ask because I’m still a bit torn between converting to the RCC or the OC.)
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I copied from a poster a while back on the IC:

For example: The Immaculate Conception as a Doctrine presupposes a developed and understood theology of Original Sin. It also presupposes a fully developed, clarified, and understood Christology. It took the Church at least 700 years just to clarify and define the formal doctrines regarding Christ. The doctrine of Orignal Sin likewise. Knowing this, and we should not be suprised when reading the Early Church Fathers we don’t see much in the way of a formal reference to an Immaculate Conception, since we can’t understand who Mary is until we understand who Christ is, and we can’t understand the Immaculate Conception without first understanding what Original Sin is. In short the “theological scaffolding” has to be in place before a doctrine can be formally defined.

Also, the West celebrates Dec 8 as the feast of the IC, but the East (I stand to be corrected on these, this is from memory) celebrates Dec 9, the feast of St. Anne, Mary’s mother…which is akin to the IC.
 
Along the lines of possibly a separate thread, I would like for each of us to think about whether these views of our blessed mother are significant enough as to continue to divide Eastern and Western Christianity, Greek and Latin, Catholic and Orthodox. I pray and long for the day when we can all be one as Christ prayed that we would be.

Most August Mother of the Church, pray for us!
 
The idea that the Theotokos did not suffer death seems to be a modern Catholic folk-belief. The Bull (it may not have been a bull, but the “grades” of Papal pronouncements have always been beyond me) which made the Assumption a dogma in the Catholic Church makes several references to the Tradition that she died first and in no place contradicts them. That said, the Orthodox and Catholics emphasize different aspects of the same event (dormition vs. assumption), but the official teachings can be reconciled without difficulty. In fact my only issue is that the Catholic Church attached an anathema to those who do not accept it.

The idea of co-mediatrix is certainly understandable from an Orthodox perspective, although I’m not sure we’d go so far as to state it out of an orthodox context, i.e. she is only such in the sense that her son is God and even while he was on earth, he held the petitions of his mother in high regard (Wedding in Cana), and therefore we would extend that to the heavenly realm.

The idea of the Immaculate Conception, as stated, doesn’t make sense without a western view of Original Sin. I’m not sure I’d call the Western concept more developed, as some have suggested though.
 
I believe that the Blessed Mother would not want us separated. As a mother, she can only want her children to come together.🙂
 
Nine_Two said:
The idea that the Theotokos did not suffer death seems to be a modern Catholic folk-belief. The Bull (it may not have been a bull, but the “grades” of Papal pronouncements have always been beyond me) which made the Assumption a dogma in the Catholic Church makes several references to the Tradition that she died first and in no place contradicts them. That said, the Orthodox and Catholics emphasize different aspects of the same event (dormition vs. assumption), but the official teachings can be reconciled without difficulty. In fact my only issue is that the Catholic Church attached an anathema to those who do not accept it.

The idea of co-mediatrix is certainly understandable from an Orthodox perspective, although I’m not sure we’d go so far as to state it out of an orthodox context, i.e. she is only such in the sense that her son is God and even while he was on earth, he held the petitions of his mother in high regard (Wedding in Cana), and therefore we would extend that to the heavenly realm.

The idea of the Immaculate Conception, as stated, doesn’t make sense without a western view of Original Sin. I’m not sure I’d call the Western concept more developed, as some have suggested though.
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This is a good analysis.

The Orthodox position on sin and atonement is still not entirely clear to me, so perhaps you could help me to better understand it. In the West there is allowed a certain plurality SNS diversity with regard to soteriological models, but the majority of theologians today teach that Christ came to deify but human sin turned the Incarnation into a redemptive and suffering narrative, as secondary to God’s purpose which is to draw us into the divine life of the Trinity.

Pope Benedict discusses atonement not in juridical categories but as the Son drawing hatred and sin onto himself and conquering it through the love that endured unto death on a cross so that now he gives himself as a gift in the Eucharist especially.

In any case, do the Orthodox believe that there is any ontological or other difference between Adam before and after the Fall? Is the will the same? How does the cross atone?
 
EIF5A said:
Is the Immaculate Conception the only significant difference in how the two Churches understand the Blessed Virgin Mary/Theotokos?

From what I gather, the Orthodox Church does not believe in the Immaculate Conception not because of Mary per se, but because the view on original sin is different.

Does the Orthodox Church view Theotokos as a (co)-mediator as well and is there a similar prayer of veneration like The Rosary?

(Lest Catholic members think I’m attacking their faith, I ask because I’m still a bit torn between converting to the RCC or the OC.)
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Both Orthodox & Catholics believe Mary to be Immaculate. Catholic believe it be a singular grace that she was kept free from sin from the moment of her conception - making her unique in creation & Orthodox that she of her own free-will choice to remain sinless (which Catholics also believe, just because we’re given a Grace doesn’t mean we loose free-will) and that all conceived babies are free from sin, but fall into sin, also making her unique but in a different way.

No Orthodox would never use the term co-Mediatrix of all graces, but Orthodox do have an ancient prayer which is repeated using a Prayer rope: ‘Iperagia Theotoke soson imas’ which means, Most Holy Mother of God, save us - this prayer basically shows that Orthodox do believe in her ability to mediate our salvation. Orthodox also have a less widely known tradition recorded by St Simeon (I think) called the Rule of the Theotokos which is nearly identical as the Rosary - you can Google it for details of the prayers & meditations/mysteries.

I have been Orthodox and I recommend to you, Unity with the Pope of Rome 🙂 Jesus founded His Church on St.Peter & the Successors of St.Peter for a reason.
 
The Catholic Church does not explicitly say that the Blessed Mother did not die, nor that she did, but that “at the end of her earthly life” she was assumed into heaven.
 
coachkfan1 said:
Along the lines of possibly a separate thread, I would like for each of us to think about whether these views of our blessed mother are significant enough as to continue to divide Eastern and Western Christianity, Greek and Latin, Catholic and Orthodox. I pray and long for the day when we can all be one as Christ prayed that we would be.

Most August Mother of the Church, pray for us!
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No, I don’t believe they are.

It is interesting that Catholics tend to focus on the Mary more in private devotion & Orthodox tend to focus on her more in public devotion - someone pointed that out earlier in this thread and it popped out to me 🙂
 
ComeHome2Rome said:
‘Iperagia Theotoke soson imas’ which means, Most Holy Mother of God, save us - this prayer basically shows that Orthodox do believe in her ability to mediate our salvation.
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Ahhh…I heard a (Greek?) Orthodox chant by nuns in a monastery on Youtube (and downloaded it to my ipod…hope I didn’t commit a sin…if it were commercially available, I would have paid for it but I couldn’t find it anywhere. I listen to it walking to/from home/work.)

I thought that phrase sounded familiar, although I have no idea what they are chanting. Now I know at least one verse. 🙂
I have been Orthodox and I recommend to you, Unity with the Pope of Rome Jesus founded His Church on St.Peter & the Successors of St.Peter for a reason.
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I wish my conscience would tell me exactly where to go so I can worship in peace. There are positive attributes to both Churches --just wish they would re-combine so I don’t have to make a difficult decision.
 
We refer to the Theotokos as Mediatrix often in our hymns during Vespers, but we don’t mean by it quite what Roman Catholics do. Roman Catholics seem to have some sort of view of all graces being filtered through Mary’s hands (that’s what the images seem to portray anyway) and/or Mary’s suffering being added to Christ’s in such a significance that it raises her to co-mediatrix. Orthodox don’t have any concept of “offering it up” as Romans do.
 
If someone were to ask me to elaborate on what is exactly meant by “save us”, how do I respond in line with Catholic/Orthodox teaching? To put another way, how do you define Mary’s role in salvation? Is it the Incarnation of God who Is also fully human to bridge a gap between us and God and allow a route to theosis/sanctification?
 
Rawb said:
We refer to the Theotokos as Mediatrix often in our hymns during Vespers, but we don’t mean by it quite what Roman Catholics do. Roman Catholics seem to have some sort of view of all graces being filtered through Mary’s hands (that’s what the images seem to portray anyway) and/or Mary’s suffering being added to Christ’s in such a significance that it raises her to co-mediatrix. Orthodox don’t have any concept of “offering it up” as Romans do.
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So grace flows from God to the Blessed Virgin Mary to us?
 
EIF5A said:
If someone were to ask me to elaborate on what is exactly meant by “save us”, how do I respond in line with Catholic/Orthodox teaching? To put another way, how do you define Mary’s role in salvation? Is it the Incarnation of God who Is also fully human to bridge a gap between us and God and allow a route to theosis/sanctification?
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Well, in Orthodoxy:

“Mary’s prayers are very persuasive with Christ. We’re asking her to pray for us.”
 
EIF5A said:
Ahhh…

I wish my conscience would tell me exactly where to go so I can worship in peace. There are positive attributes to both Churches --just wish they would re-combine so I don’t have to make a difficult decision.
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There are Eastern Rite(Orthodox equivalent) Cathlics as part of the CC.

The basic difference IMHO, between the two is with regards to Church governance…the hierarchical nature of the West as compared to the non-hierarchy model in the east.

But the authority still rests in the bishops.

My suggestion is to study both and look the advantages and disadvantages of both models. Which one serves the purpose of the Church better-the west vs the east model?
 
The death of the Virgin Mary and Assumption in Orthodox teaching is called the Dormition. There are some traditions and Saints that have written about the death of the Virgin Mary, and the Apostles gathering for her passing. An incredible book I recommend is “On the Dormition of Mary: Early Patrisitic Homilies” Translated by Brian E. Daley, S.J., published by SVS Press.The saints writings include St. Andrew of Crete, St. Germanus, St. John of Damascus, St. Theodore the Studite and other early christian writers. Read of her preparing for death, the Apostles gathering, Christ coming for his mothers Soul at her death and other amazing traditions;even a few prayers by the Apostles!

svspress.com/on-the-dormition-of-mary/

:harp:
 
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