Catholic and Orthodox views of the Blessed Virgin Mary/Theotokos

  • Thread starter Thread starter EIF5A
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
EIF5A said:
If someone were to ask me to elaborate on what is exactly meant by “save us”, how do I respond in line with Catholic/Orthodox teaching?

From part of the Salve Regina:

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,our life, our sweetness and our hope, to thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs,mourning and weeping in this vale of tears; turn, then most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus.

O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Also…part of the Hail Mary:

Holy Mary, Mother of God…pray for us sinners now at the hour of our death…Amen.
To put another way, how do you define Mary’s role in salvation? n?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
EIF5A said:
So grace flows from God to the Blessed Virgin Mary to us?
Click to expand...
Yes, but not exclusively. Grace flows through the Saints and through the Church itself. God is limitless, why would grace be limited to one human being?
 
Here’s a really good breakdown of the doctrines and dogma of the Catholic Church in regards to our Blessed Mother. I don’t claim to know Orthodox teaching on Mary all that well, but perhaps that will allow you or some of our Orthodox brethren to compare this to the Orthodox Tradition and see where the differences really are. Even after reading several other sources I learned a great deal from this section of Ott’s text.

The Mother of the Redeemer: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott.
docs.google.com/file/d/0B7fZscRMVeruR1VnVlNTMVhJT2c/edit?usp=sharing

I hope this is helpful.

Peace of Christ, and God Bless.
 
The Orthodox Church, by celebrating the seemingly “nonscriptural” feasts of Mary’s nativity and of her presentation in the temple reveals, in fact, a real faithfulness to the Bible, for the meaning of these feasts lies precisely in their recognition of the Virgin Mary as the goal and the fulfillment of the whole history of salvation, of that history of love and obedience, of response and expectation. She is the true daughter of the Old Testament, its last and most beautiful flower. The Orthodox Church rejects the dogma of the Immaculate Conception precisely because it makes Mary a miraculous “break” in this long and patient growth of love and expectation, of this “hunger for the living God” which fills the Old Testament. She is the gift of the world to God
Click to expand...
Fr. Alexander Schmemann, For the Life of the World
Click to expand...
 
Surnaturel said:
but the majority of theologians today teach that Christ came to deify but human sin turned the Incarnation into a redemptive and suffering narrative, as secondary to God’s purpose which is to draw us into the divine life of the Trinity.
Click to expand...
This is an interesting point in itself from the Lords perspective having the knowledge that Adam and Eve would be disobedient. Seems we lost a few Catholics during this class. 🙂
 
ConstantineTG said:
Yes, but not exclusively. Grace flows through the Saints and through the Church itself. God is limitless, why would grace be limited to one human being?
Click to expand...
Grace flows directly from God directly to the Church (Church meaning the people if God). We pray to Saints including Mary so that they will pray with us and for us to God who is the singular source of Grace.
 
godisgood77 said:
Grace flows directly from God directly to the Church (Church meaning the people if God). We pray to Saints including Mary so that they will pray with us and for us to God who is the singular source of Grace.
Click to expand...
The saints can also “dispense graces”, if you want to call it that. Since salvation for us means Theosis, the communion achieved by the saints with Christ means that the light of Christ is within them. The grace that they give us is ultimately not theirs, but it is from Christ who works with all and through all. As I said in my post, we believe that grace through the Theotokos, but not in an exclusive sense. Grace flows from all who have Christ in them because ultimately grace comes from Christ. Actually, in Orthodox understanding, grace is God.
 
ConstantineTG said:
The saints can also “dispense graces”, if you want to call it that. Since salvation for us means Theosis, the communion achieved by the saints with Christ means that the light of Christ is within them. The grace that they give us is ultimately not theirs, but it is from Christ who works with all and through all. As I said in my post, we believe that grace through the Theotokos, but not in an exclusive sense. Grace flows from all who have Christ in them because ultimately grace comes from Christ. Actually, in Orthodox understanding, grace is God.
Click to expand...
Catholic teaching is in agreement here. I also don’t believe any of us can deny “All” grace passed through Mary/Incarnation.

There is no denial, in fact contrary, all Salvation is of Jesus Christ “alone”. Had He deemed it fitting that “All Grace” should flow through His Mother? Amen! May He be Blessed forever and Her also. Salvation being of Christ the Lord is of His transmission of Grace. We are in agreement the Saints in which we include Mary then is an affirmative.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Yes, but not exclusively. Grace flows through the Saints and through the Church itself. God is limitless, why would grace be limited to one human being?
Click to expand...
The Church is considered “paradise” as it contains all the Biblical marks. Gods Holy ground is paradise. Why did God choose Mary for the Incarnation of the Word of God?

Then this would be the same question you are contemplating. Why did God desire that all Grace flow through Mary in the Incarnate Word of God?
 
GaryTaylor said:
Catholic teaching is in agreement here. I also don’t believe any of us can deny “All” grace passed through Mary/Incarnation.

There is no denial, in fact contrary, all Salvation is of Jesus Christ “alone”. Had He deemed it fitting that “All Grace” should flow through His Mother? Amen! May He be Blessed forever and Her also. Salvation being of Christ the Lord is of His transmission of Grace. We are in agreement the Saints in which we include Mary then is an affirmative.
Click to expand...
You just twisted what I said. All grace flows through all who have Christ in them. not just the Theotokos. Although among all saints, she is the greatest. But there is no exclusivity here, as Catholics claim.
 
40.png
ConstantineTG:
I love this explaination. Just want to make note of one teaching in regards to the Immaculate Conception from a Roman point of view.

The best explaination for belief in the Immaculate Conception I’ve heard, is that it was necessary for Crist to be carried and brought forth into the world, from a pure tabernacle. The Roman church emphasizes that John the Baptist lept inside his mother’s womb at the presence of Jesus within the womb of Mary, just as David danced before the tabernacle of God. In respect to what was necessary in order to create an appropriate vessel to carry the Living God, it makes more sense to me. Before hearing this explaination, the idea of the Immaculate Conception just seemed odd and unnecessary to me.
 
marimagi said:
I love this explaination. Just want to make note of one teaching in regards to the Immaculate Conception from a Roman point of view.

The best explaination for belief in the Immaculate Conception I’ve heard, is that it was necessary for Crist to be carried and brought forth into the world, from a pure tabernacle. The Roman church emphasizes that John the Baptist lept inside his mother’s womb at the presence of Jesus within the womb of Mary, just as David danced before the tabernacle of God. In respect to what was necessary in order to create an appropriate vessel to carry the Living God, it makes more sense to me. Before hearing this explaination, the idea of the Immaculate Conception just seemed odd and unnecessary to me.
Click to expand...
No, it wasn’t necessary. Mary being pure and immaculate was an effect of being chosen as the Theotokos, not a pre-requisite.
 
ConstantineTG said:
No, it wasn’t necessary. Mary being pure and immaculate was an effect of being chosen as the Theotokos, not a pre-requisite.
Click to expand...
I’m not trying to say what the truth of the matter is. I don’t know and there is much that we do not know and can’t know in this life; in our human state. Just saying the explanation made sense and has some beautiful symbolism as well. On the other hand, Mary not being free from original sin, makes her more like us and makes her “yes” even more profound. Either way, the important part is that she is our mother and she loves us.
 
marimagi said:
I’m not trying to say what the truth of the matter is. I don’t know and there is much that we do not know and can’t know in this life; in our human state. Just saying the explanation made sense and has some beautiful symbolism as well. On the other hand, Mary not being free from original sin, makes her more like us and makes her “yes” even more profound. Either way, the important part is that she is our mother and she loves us.
Click to expand...
And that is the biggest objection of the Orthodox against the IC. Is the fact that it makes Mary not like us. Which makes Jesus, by extension, not humanly like us.
 
ConstantineTG said:
And that is the biggest objection of the Orthodox against the IC. Is the fact that it makes Mary not like us. Which makes Jesus, by extension, not humanly like us.
Click to expand...
I get that. Notice that I describe myself as both Catholic and Orthodox. I was Confirmed in both traditions (long story.) I LOVE both. I pray that one day, we will be one again. Don’t know how that will happen, but I pray.
 
ConstantineTG said:
And that is the biggest objection of the Orthodox against the IC. Is the fact that it makes Mary not like us. Which makes Jesus, by extension, not humanly like us.
Click to expand...
The early Christian writer Jacob of Serug, wrote on the Virgin Mary. He says that God placed Mary in the same condition Adam and Eve were in before the fall. And that the Holy Spirit cast out of her the sin of Adam. In his theology this was before the Incarnation if I understand his writings. So he requires that Mary is Immaculate before she conceives the Lord in her womb. So the theology of a Immaculate Mary does exist in early christian thinking. Though whether it was at her Conception, or before the Incarnation is unclear Jacob’s theology. What is the Orthodox view on this theology?🙂

svspress.com/on-the-mother-of-god/
 
The_Serpent said:
The early Christian writer Jacob of Serug, wrote on the Virgin Mary. He says that God placed Mary in the same condition Adam and Eve were in before the fall. And that the Holy Spirit cast out of her the sin of Adam. In his theology this was before the Incarnation if I understand his writings. So he requires that Mary is Immaculate before she conceives the Lord in her womb. So the theology of a Immaculate Mary does exist in early christian thinking. Though whether it was at her Conception, or before the Incarnation is unclear Jacob’s theology. What is the Orthodox view on this theology?🙂

svspress.com/on-the-mother-of-god/
Click to expand...
But again that is the thing, we do not believe that any of us has the sin of Adam.
 
ConstantineTG said:
No, it wasn’t necessary. Mary being pure and immaculate was an effect of being chosen as the Theotokos, not a pre-requisite.
Click to expand...
All creation is Gods effect since He is the cause. All Grace passed through Mary is the point. If you can conclude otherwise please explain.

Pre-requisite is understood as how by you?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top