Catholic and Orthodox views on each other's Sacraments

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joel_PF
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Joel_PF

Guest
The Catholic Church considers the Orthodox churches (both Eastern and Oriental) as possessing apostolic succession, and thus having valid Sacraments.

The Eastern Orthodox (I don’t know about the Orientals on this one), on the contrary, believe that once a church is in schism or heresy it is outside God’s grace and thus loses all its Sacraments and therefore also the apostolic succession which depends on valid ordinations (in fact, a heretical priests loses his priesthood). That is why they baptize the converts from Catholicism, and even when they don’t (sometimes they go straight to chrismation - is that the word in English?), it is understood that the Orthodox Sacraments fill with grace the empty vessels of the Catholic Sacraments the person once received.

Now, from the little I know about the origin of this profound difference in ecclesiology, it began as a controversy among the Church Fathers. St. Augustine and Pope St. Stephen defended the Catholic position, and at least one saint, St. Cyprian of Carthage (was it someone else?) defended what is now the Orthodox position.

Well, this took place in the 4th or 5th centuries, long before the schism. So I’m wondering if the matter was ever settled by an Ecumenical Council or by other authoritative statements from Fathers, bishops, patriarchs and popes before the schism. Can anyone with a good knowledge of Church history (and from what I’ve been reading here in this forum there are quite a few very knowledgeable members here!) tell me more about this subject?
 
I know the Catholic position was helped at the Council of Trent. That Council made clear that Baptism, Confirmation/Chrismation, and Holy Orders leave indeliable marks on the soul. Because Holy Orders is an indeliable mark, those who leave the Church can still effect the Sacraments so long as they have true belief regarding the Sacraments. I can’t wait to see the patristic sources though! Great thread!
 
Just to address the Oriental Orthodox, it seems to vary somewhat. The Armenian and Syrian Orthodox Churches permit intermarriage with Catholics and recognize our sacraments. The Coptic Orthodox generally don’t permit intermarriage with Catholics, and the general consensus seems to be that we don’t possess true sacraments, although that may vary somewhat from parish to parish. Also worth noting is that the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, neither of which technically belongs to either Orthodox camp, also recognize Catholic sacraments.
 
Orthodox Sacramental theology does emphasize the necessary connection of being in communion with the Church for sacraments to be fully valid.

The point is not whether these or those Orthodox acknowledge sacraments outside the Orthodox Catholic Church as being valid or not.

The point is that the Church as the Body of Christ is the fount of Grace and so it is just that the Orthodox say they don’t know what exists outside the Church. They have no indication other than to say that there is one Church and that communion with it is communion with the Christ and the Holy Trinity.

I think the RC theology in this respect was the same some time ago.

And I think the Orthodox theology in this respect is much clearer and “better.” There are all sorts of vagante clergy who claim “valid orders” through long lists of “who ordained whom” before they got to them etc.

Alex
 
I have heard that if an Orthodox person wishes to marry a Catholic in the Catholic Church that will be permitted and the Baptism of the Orthodox person will be respected. However, if the parties wished to have the ceremony in the Orthodox Church I am told that the Catholic would need to be to be re-baptized in the Orthodox Church because the Baptism of the Catholic person will not be respected.

I would appreciate a comment from someone knowledgeable of Orthodoxy.
 
AnotherVoice said:
I have heard that if an Orthodox person wishes to marry a Catholic in the Catholic Church that will be permitted and the Baptism of the Orthodox person will be respected. However, if the parties wished to have the ceremony in the Orthodox Church I am told that the Catholic would need to be to be re-baptized in the Orthodox Church because the Baptism of the Catholic person will not be respected.

I would appreciate a comment from someone knowledgeable of Orthodoxy.
Click to expand...
Incorrect. Orthodox are allowed to marry nonOrthodox, but the person must be baptized Trinitarian. This came up recently in a discussion with my priest over my relationship with a Mormon girl.

Last I heard if a 'Dox and a Catholic want to get married, the Catholics actually have permission, from their bishops, to get married in the Orthodox church, because of the beliefs about the Sacrament from an Orthodox and Roman Catholic perspective. In Orthodoxy it requires the presence of the priest, and in Catholicism only the presence of the couple.
 
Rawb said:
Incorrect. Orthodox are allowed to marry nonOrthodox, but the person must be baptized Trinitarian. This came up recently in a discussion with my priest over my relationship with a Mormon girl.

Last I heard if a 'Dox and a Catholic want to get married, the Catholics actually have permission, from their bishops, to get married in the Orthodox church, because of the beliefs about the Sacrament from an Orthodox and Roman Catholic perspective. In Orthodoxy it requires the presence of the priest, and in Catholicism only the presence of the couple.
Click to expand...
Actually, the last sentence is only partly correct. Eastern Catholics must be married by a priest, even if the marriage occurs in a Roman Catholic Church.
 
RyanBlack said:
Actually, the last sentence is only partly correct. Eastern Catholics must be married by a priest, even if the marriage occurs in a Roman Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity, do you know what path would be suggested if an Eastern Catholic and an Orthodox wanted to get married? Would they, again, be given permission to get married in the Orthodox Church?
 
Rawb said:
Just out of curiosity, do you know what path would be suggested if an Eastern Catholic and an Orthodox wanted to get married? Would they, again, be given permission to get married in the Orthodox Church?
Click to expand...
I suspect so, but I’m not sure.
 
Rawb said:
Incorrect. Orthodox are allowed to marry nonOrthodox, but the person must be baptized Trinitarian. This came up recently in a discussion with my priest over my relationship with a Mormon girl.

Last I heard if a 'Dox and a Catholic want to get married, the Catholics actually have permission, from their bishops, to get married in the Orthodox church, because of the beliefs about the Sacrament from an Orthodox and Roman Catholic perspective. In Orthodoxy it requires the presence of the priest, and in Catholicism only the presence of the couple.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the comment. I am glad we mutually respect our Baptism.
 
Rawb said:
Just out of curiosity, do you know what path would be suggested if an Eastern Catholic and an Orthodox wanted to get married? Would they, again, be given permission to get married in the Orthodox Church?
Click to expand...
i believe that, from a catholic POV no matter what, the marriage should be done in the Orthodox church, so the validity is unquestionably on both sides. i could be in error though
 
Montalo said:
i believe that, from a catholic POV no matter what, the marriage should be done in the Orthodox church, so the validity is unquestionably on both sides. i could be in error though
Click to expand...
No, from a Catholic point of view, it should be in a Catholic Church, though it might be permissible to have it in an Orthodox one.

For Catholics the Orthodox denial of Catholic Sacraments is contemptible and deserves no regard. If they don’t accept, so be it, it’s their loss.

Still, I’d like to get thread back on track. Anyone knows about how the different ecclsiologies were treated before the Schism? Any Council had anything to say on the matter? Was there a majority opinion?
 
Joel_PF said:
No, from a Catholic point of view, it should be in a Catholic Church, though it might be permissible to have it in an Orthodox one.

For Catholics the Orthodox denial of Catholic Sacraments is contemptible and deserves no regard. If they don’t accept, so be it, it’s their loss.

Still, I’d like to get thread back on track. Anyone knows about how the different ecclsiologies were treated before the Schism? Any Council had anything to say on the matter? Was there a majority opinion?
Click to expand...
Not only is it permissible, but currently, there is a tendency-at least in some countries-to encourage such mixed marriages to occur in the Orthodox Church, both for the sake of Orthodox-Catholic relations, as well as for pastoral considerations for the couple. The Orthodox excommunicates her members who are married outside of the Orthodox Church, while the Catholic Church does not. While it is still the case that a member of the Catholic Church who intends to get married in the Orthodox Church should seek permission from his/her bishop to do so, I believe that such permission is routinely granted, for the reasons I’ve already noted.
 
But as Catholics shouldn’t we hold that view as contemptible? It boils down to saying that the Pope and Bishops are frauds without the Grace of God. We should charitably engage the Orthodox in dialogue, but I think a little righteous anger at what they claim is healthy. Would you take umbrage if someone insulted your mama? So how much more so should you when they insult Mother Church?

Its also important to keep in mind though that the EO do not have one official view on this matter. There is a lot of nuance going on here. So why it may not be productive to call the EO view contemptible, I certainly think it is a valid feeling for a Catholic to have.
 
Joel_PF said:
Anyone knows about how the different ecclsiologies were treated before the Schism? Any Council had anything to say on the matter? Was there a majority opinion?
Click to expand...
Before the great schism there was only one ecclesiology. with slight variations of internal governance from place to place.

One can read the canons of Nicea to see how the churches within the Roman empire mutually agreed to maintain themselves, with separate Metropolitan synods by province. The intent was (once the persecutions had ended) to continue as they had in earlier times. Those churches outside of the empire continued as they had organically developed from their Apostolic and missionary origins with deacons, priests and the bishops who ordained and taught them.
 
I don’t have enough knowledge of the Church councils… but there have been many Eucharistic miracles in the Catholic Church, I think that shows something 🙂
 
smad0142 said:
But as Catholics shouldn’t we hold that view as contemptible? It boils down to saying that the Pope and Bishops are frauds without the Grace of God.
Click to expand...
That is your own interpretation of what it boils down to.

If you come to the Illinois with a credit card from Tanu Tuva, don’t expect to automatically be able to purchase something on it. This is not a reflection on you, or your ability to pay, or even on Tanu Tuva. If it is unknown the card will not be accepted.

For all anyone knows your creditworthiness is perfectly fine - or maybe not. There is nothing contemptible about this.

“Sorry, we don’t take that card here” with a smile … "have a nice day! " 🙂

"Thank you, I’ll just shop where they DO take my card … " :tiphat:
 
I do not fault the Orthodox, some of them, for their view on Catholic Orders. If I was Orthodox I gurantee I would think Catholic Orders are invalid. I am just saying that I think the poster who said it is contemptible was reacting reasonably.
 
smad0142 said:
I do not fault the Orthodox, some of them, for their view on Catholic Orders. If I was Orthodox I gurantee I would think Catholic Orders are invalid…
Click to expand...
I don’t know why you say that.

I am Orthodox and I don’t make such a guarantee. Outside of discussions on CAF I don’t consider it one way or another at all, it just doesn’t loom large in my life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top