Catholic Annulment?

[CARose]

Jaded27:

oh yea. I definitely know about the “worse”!

I can relate!

Jaded27:

… Also, if you are going through marriage for the first time I’m pretty sure they don’t make you wait a year just for the heck of it. …

Actually, for first time marriages, or even marriages which are second time around, with all the annulment issues completed and out of the way, the Church requires a 6 month period of discernment before the wedding, after you contact the priest. The Engaged Encounter weekend is specifically designed to address issues that many couples and their therapists overlook. It also goes through some of the things that a Catholic might take for granted, not even realizing that a particular aspect of Catholic marriage is not the cultural norm. Some of these things might come up years into the marriage, some might be issues early on. It sounds like you have likely addressed many of the “early on” issues already, through things that have come up while living together. However, you may find, that you each have some expectations that certain things will change as a result of being married. Have you gone through those expectations in an organized manner? I really would encourage you to consider the program for your Fiance’ and yourself, so that you can both come to a comfortable agreement on how you want to handle things.

Jaded27:

…As for the whole tribunal thing. . . . does that mean we could have the marriage approved eventually? …Just so that my fiancee will be in good standing in his church and whatnot at least after all the paperwork goes through.

This can be done. It isn’t the advisable way to approach it however.

This comes down to a willingness to place our own will behind that of Our Lord. It’s a matter of accepting the authority of the Church as having a place in our lives, and that this authority was granted by God. That being the case, when it comes to God, you don’t just do it your way, ask forgiveness and then make things right later if you know when you’re doing it that it’s wrong.

I mean, you can, but when it comes to matters of God, why would you. You can wait, do it right and know you’re accepting the delay for God and your fiance’. Think of it as a personal wedding Gift to the most important party to your marriage, God.

CARose

 

[Jaded27]

CARose:

Actually, for first time marriages, or even marriages which are second time around, with all the annulment issues completed and out of the way, the Church requires a 6 month period of discernment before the wedding, after you contact the priest.

Yikes! And people think JWs have a lot of rules!

CARose:

This comes down to a willingness to place our own will behind that of Our Lord. It’s a matter of accepting the authority of the Church as having a place in our lives, and that this authority was granted by God. That being the case, when it comes to God, you don’t just do it your way, ask forgiveness and then make things right later if you know when you’re doing it that it’s wrong.

I mean, you can, but when it comes to matters of God, why would you. You can wait, do it right and know you’re accepting the delay for God and your fiance’. Think of it as a personal wedding Gift to the most important party to your marriage, God.

CARose

Yea, I see what you’re saying. You also have to take into account that as a JW, my marriage is no longer an issue. Once it is desolved legally it’s over and done with. So to me I am not going against God or anything like that. As for my fiancee, well that’s his decision to make. I can’t make it for him. I told him I was willing to go through what it would take to get married in the church if that’s what’s important to him. It is important to him, but we also have to weigh the plans we have already made against this thing which was only just brought to our attention recently. Who knows what we will decide. I’m just here gathering info for now.

But as I said, my relationship with God is not being compromised if I marry without an annulment from a religion I don’t belong to. Not trying to be snide, but just saying that I can totally live with that. I just have to echo my previous thought of people thinking JWs had a ton of rules and are realy strict. lol. It’s funny to see the differences and similarities between the two faiths when I’m on this board. Thanks!

 

[CARose]

I can totally appreciate that you’re not Catholic and that for that reason, it’s more than a bit tough to be invested in doing that which the church is asking.

You are, however, marrying someone of the faith. I just hope you won’t pressure him to place the date of your wedding in front of his doing what the church asks. You wouldn’t want to ask him to put you above God, even if you don’t believe in the way that God is being manifested in his life.

Remember, that the primary thing you want is that the two of you work together towards your ultimate salvation.

God Bless,
CARose

 

[Jaded27]

CARose:

I can totally appreciate that you’re not Catholic and that for that reason, it’s more than a bit tough to be invested in doing that which the church is asking.

You are, however, marrying someone of the faith. I just hope you won’t pressure him to place the date of your wedding in front of his doing what the church asks.

Yes, I’ve accepted the responsibility of marrying someone of a different religion. No problems there. I’d never pressure him. When I said the stuff about wedding dates, I meant that he feels the same way I do – that we’ve got all this stuff planned and now we find out about this so what do we do? You know?

CARose:

You wouldn’t want to ask him to put you above God, even if you don’t believe in the way that God is being manifested in his life.

Remember, that the primary thing you want is that the two of you work together towards your ultimate salvation.

God Bless,
CARose

Ironically, I’ve been the one to tell him that God is extremely important to me and that you have to put your relationship with him above the relationships you have with family and friends. If you do that, then God will take care of the rest. My fiancée takes that to mean that I would choose my religion over him and stuff. I find it funny to have another Catholic say that to me when I am the one saying that to HIM. Lol.

 

[CARose]

You are absolutely right that God comes first, our spouse second, our families after that, and then we come in.

I’m happy to hear that you are strongly encouraging him to take his relationship with Christ seriously. I’m sorry that you have only recently come to learn of these requirements of the Church. It must be especially frustrating when you consider that you’ve been together for a period of time, during which you could have had this paperwork being processed. But as it’s not your religion requesting it, if the two of you weren’t going to be married, it wouldn’t have been an issue for you. Ah, the challenges of life!

I have a Baptist friend married to a Catholic man who also works to raise her husbands awareness of the place God plays in their lives. She sends her oldest to Catholic school (the younger children are not school age yet) and we’ve enjoyed having conversations regarding God and His place in our lives.

God Bless you as you work through the challenges ahead.

BTW, I didn’t follow the rules of the church when getting married because I didn’t understand them at the time, and I can tell you, I seriously regret taking the path I did. I am married to the most wonderful man, and yet I wish we’d waited and done it as we should have. (20/20 hindsight, hence my interest in your story)

CARose

 

[Jaded27]

CARose:

BTW, I didn’t follow the rules of the church when getting married because I didn’t understand them at the time, and I can tell you, I seriously regret taking the path I did. I am married to the most wonderful man, and yet I wish we’d waited and done it as we should have. (20/20 hindsight, hence my interest in your story)

CARose

Yep, hindsight is 20/20. That’s always the fun part. I know how that feels.

 

[CARose]

I think the interesting aspect is that many of the challenges I’ve encountered could have been avoided had I simply followed the “rules”. But at the time, they didn’t seem all that important to me, and my husband isn’t (and wasn’t) Catholic so he certainly didn’t see any reason to wait the 6 months.

We had “reasons” to not want to wait (we found out my mom was very ill w cancer the day we returned from my birthday weekend getaway during which we became engaged). First we waited, but then it looked like she might not make it, so I wanted her there and we decided we’d better expedite the plans. Well, it turns out that she lived long enough to then be around for our daughters 1 year birthday (but just barely).

What I’ve come to realize is that if my mother was meant to be present, if it was God’s will, then she would live long enough. If not, then she would be taken sooner, as is the case for every brides parents. We each live today only by the will of God.

But we have had problems that I firmly believe could have been avoided if we’d gone through the necessary steps, including filing for and awaiting judgements on our annulments. The challenges that arise for each marriage are distinctly unique, so where we had problems might never create a challenge for you and visa versa.

But the programs they have in place are really quite good to ensure you have the best possible opportunity to address the most common issues marriages (especially mixed marriages) encounter.

Again, I truly wish the two of you all the best,

CARose

 

[Jaded27]

Well, hopefully this will all be null and void anyway. We’ve decided that we’d rather have the wedding in October of next year because it’s such a beautiful time of year. So that gives the church one year and one month to help us get this passed through. Hopefully all will go smoothly. And I still have to point out to them that neither my ex nor I were ever baptized as anything but JWs so maybe the marriage wont’ count anyway. That’d be nice. : )
Thanks for all the advice. You’ve all been most helpful and very kind.

 

[Jaded27]

An update for those who are interested:
My fiancee called his parish yesterday and talked to the younger of the two priests for about an hour on the phone. He told him just about the entire situation and we have an appointment to meet with him next Thursday night.

I am very excited and very nervous. I don’t want him to look down on me because I’m a Witness and such. It doesn’t sound like that will happen (when my fiancee told the priest he goes to my meetings with me, he said that was really nice), but I’m nervous anyway.

 

[mercygate]

Jaded27:

An update for those who are interested:
My fiancee called his parish yesterday and talked to the younger of the two priests for about an hour on the phone. He told him just about the entire situation and we have an appointment to meet with him next Thursday night.

I am very excited and very nervous. I don’t want him to look down on me because I’m a Witness and such. It doesn’t sound like that will happen (when my fiancee told the priest he goes to my meetings with me, he said that was really nice), but I’m nervous anyway.

Look down on you? I’ve never met nicer, more sincere people who make conspicuous sacrifices to live out their faith. Nobody in his right mind would look down on a person who is honest and sincere in his faith. Catholics may object to JW theology but that’s a whole different issue.

 

[Jaded27]

mercygate:

Look down on you? I’ve never met nicer, more sincere people who make conspicuous sacrifices to live out their faith. Nobody in his right mind would look down on a person who is honest and sincere in his faith.

I guess I know that logically, but I’m still nervous. Yea, I mean, it’s not like I’m pagan or something. I have an actual belief in God and such. He did say it was nice that we go to my meetings together and church together too so that’s a good sign. You know what it is? I get nervous around ANY figure of authority. Cops, judges, priests, elders (the “priests” of my religion), etc. I think it’s just carrying over into this.

mercygate:

Catholics may object to JW theology but that’s a whole different issue.

Oh, I KNOW. And one I’d prefer not to get into here. Already did that on the JW section. I’m all set with that particular discussion. lol.

Thanks for the post!

 

[Mr.Lutz]

Ewtn has repeatedly informed us that there is no such a thing as an “annulment”. There is , though, a decree of nullity that is granted when, and especially if, a marriage is deemed to have never existed in the first place.

 

[Jaded27]

Mr. Lutz:

Ewtn has repeatedly informed us that there is no such a thing as an “annulment”. There is , though, a decree of nullity that is granted when, and especially if, a marriage is deemed to have never existed in the first place.

Okay, well whatever it’s called THAT’S what I’m hopefully getting. lol.

 

[CARose]

I’m glad to learn that you are currently scheduling the wedding far enough out that the Church should be able to complete the annulment process in time.

I will pray that everything resolves itself well for you and your fiance.

Also, I hope you aren’t too concerned about your upcoming appointment with the priest. He should be a humble servant of God.

Take care and keep us informed as things progress.

CARose

 

[Carolyn]

Since there were so many responses to your post I only scanned them quickly… so if I repeat what someone already said I apologize.

Speaking from experience regarding not wanting the other party to know that you are going thru the process:
Don’t worry about that. The tribunals look thru the testimony of the witnesses to validate whether the testimonies of the people involved show consistency. Most likely if your ex chooses to send a response it would have to be backed up by his witnesses, and if he is giving false testimony this will be evident.

BTW my husband’s annulment took 18 months. It was so hard, but I am so glad we did it because it really gave him closure, and we’ve grown closer because of it.

 

[CARose]

I went through my annulment when I was just beginning to return to the faith, and I only did it “because I was supposed to” and even then, because as a CCD teacher, I figured I should give “obedience” a try. What I never expected was to feel a weight lifted off my shoulders that I hadn’t even been aware I was carrying. It was really weird how good it felt when it was over and the finding of nullity was granted. Before that it took me forever to get the simple paperwork they wanted put together because I really didn’t want to have to look backwards and find the info they wanted.

I really didn’t think I would have any personal benefit for going through the process and was so very pleasantly surprised. It’s nice to hear that someone else experienced the same thing.

CARose

 

[Jaded27]

CARose:

I went through my annulment when I was just beginning to return to the faith, and I only did it “because I was supposed to” and even then, because as a CCD teacher, I figured I should give “obedience” a try. What I never expected was to feel a weight lifted off my shoulders that I hadn’t even been aware I was carrying. It was really weird how good it felt when it was over and the finding of nullity was granted. Before that it took me forever to get the simple paperwork they wanted put together because I really didn’t want to have to look backwards and find the info they wanted.

I really didn’t think I would have any personal benefit for going through the process and was so very pleasantly surprised. It’s nice to hear that someone else experienced the same thing.

CARose

I’m hoping that’s how my fiancee will feel about it. I’ve already left it behind because, you know, to me “legal” is enough for me.
Not knocking it, just saying I’m all set with feeling resolved and stuff. But yea, hopefully John will feel a lot better once it goes through.

So my ex gets to choose two witnesses and I do too and then they compare the testimony? Is that how it works? Cuz he could just choose his two brothers and they could go over it all together and even though I wasn’t the greatest person back then I’m sure they’d find creative ways to make it sound even worse. So does it even out when my testimony and MY witnesses’ testimony kind of counteracts that negativity?

I’m sorry for seeming to ask the same questions and stuff. I’m just really nervous about this. I think I’ll feel better after we meet with his priest on Thursday.

I’m also starting new training at my job on Monday that’s going to go for two weeks and anything new usually terrifies me so I’m adding that stress onto all of this as well. lol.

At least my fiancee already talked to the person on the phone for about an hour. He basically told almost the entire story over the phone. And the priest was like, “Oh, you’re living together?” And my fiancee said “yea. . .” really hesitantly because we figured even if we weren’t doing anything else that you absolutely can’t live together. But he said that as long as we hadn’t “taken it to the next level” we were fine. I didn’t know that. We’ll see what happens.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice and stuff. If anyone can answer that question about how many witnesses we each get and such that would be helpful. Oh, and say that my ex doesnt’ answer at all. How long to they give him to send the paperwork back? Is it like six months or something? I’m thinking maybe I should email him before they send it out and beg himto just fill it out minimally and just send it back right away. I don’t know if he’d do it. We’re civil to each other but not best friends or anything. . . .

Thanks everyone!

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Jaded27:

I
Anyway, thanks for all the advice and stuff. If anyone can answer that question about how many witnesses we each get and such that would be helpful. Oh, and say that my ex doesnt’ answer at all. How long to they give him to send the paperwork back? Is it like six months or something? I’m thinking maybe I should email him before they send it out and beg himto just fill it out minimally and just send it back right away. I don’t know if he’d do it. We’re civil to each other but not best friends or anything

You “get” as many witnesses as you think you need. He “gets” as many witnesses as he thinks he needs. 2 is generally (but not always) the minimum.

Whether or not he fills it out is not relevent. Instead, if he chooses, he can write the tribunal that he thinks it’s all a bunch of hogwash (being polite) and his involvement ends at that point. I wouldn’t beg him to do anything, if it was I. Depending on the diocese, there could very well be a time element for him to complete his end of the paperwork. Why not check with the diocese on this point?

I’ve heard of simple anullments taking anywhere from 9 months to 2 years. It can take longer for more complications. There is no definite completion time. It isn’t just gathering the witnesses and information. It’s how far backed up the tribunal in that diocese is at that point in time. Then, it has to go to the court of second instance, which is usually on the province (group of dioceses) level, and how far they’re backed up. It’s like traffic court in a way. Some days, your ticket is heard promptly at 9 AM. Some days, your ticket might say 9 AM, but you’re going to be there through 11:30 AM. That is why nobody can give you exact odds on when it will be finished- nobody knows.

 

[Jaded27]

OutinChgoburbs:

It’s like traffic court in a way. Some days, your ticket is heard promptly at 9 AM. Some days, your ticket might say 9 AM, but you’re going to be there through 11:30 AM. That is why nobody can give you exact odds on when it will be finished- nobody knows.

Well, here’s hoping they’re not “backed up” by October 7th 2006.

Hey, I just heard a rumor. I’ll find out about it on Thursday for sure, but anyone know if this costs anything? I heard it might cost something like $200 to get my marriage annulled through the church. Seems silly since there is nothing legal about this and it’s something I HAVE to do. I’m hoping that’s not true. I already paid for a divorce. I can’t afford another one. We have NO MONEY and don’t even have money for the wedding. We’re just making do as best we can. I really really hope it’s not going to cost us anything. Anyone know? Can’t wait til Thursday. Lots of questions.

 

[mercygate]

Jaded27:

Well, here’s hoping they’re not “backed up” by October 7th 2006.

Hey, I just heard a rumor. I’ll find out about it on Thursday for sure, but anyone know if this costs anything? I heard it might cost something like $200 to get my marriage annulled through the church. Seems silly since there is nothing legal about this and it’s something I HAVE to do. I’m hoping that’s not true. I already paid for a divorce. I can’t afford another one. We have NO MONEY and don’t even have money for the wedding. We’re just making do as best we can. I really really hope it’s not going to cost us anything. Anyone know? Can’t wait til Thursday. Lots of questions.

People are often surprised (and annoyed) that there may be fees associated with this process. But it involves time and effort on behalf of both professional and clerical staff in the chancery, and they have overhead. It isn’t like a lawyer charging $750/hour. If you are truly strapped, ask if the fee can be waived.

Put the charges in perspective. I know you aren’t Catholic (and you are generous to put yourself through this for your husband’s sake), but put on another hat here. If you were Catholic and married in the Church, and then divorced civilly and believed your marriage was null, and you compared the $200 clerical fee for the annulment against the cost of the initial wedding, what would that look like? Most brides today spend more than $200 on their dress alone.

You mentioned already having made plans for the wedding – did you mean for a reception? Here in metro NYC $200 would be the cost of one guest at a typical reception hall. (Gag. I think that’s nuts.) But the point I’m making is that the clerical fee is not out of line and there is likely the possibility that it could be waived.