Catholic Answers Focus: Is Francis a bad Pope?

[MNathaniel]

Seriously, this is one of the strangest first posts I have seen. This is a Catholic website, right? So why would anyone think that is an appropriate topic? We follow the Pope, we do not lead him, vote on him, or rank him.

It was literally a recent episode produced by Catholic Answers itself. So clearly they decided it was an appropriate topic. Feel free to watch and listen to find out what they meant by that (hint: the point isn’t to rank him but to discuss “What if”, out of humble charity to faithful and well meaning Catholics who struggle with this question):

I’ve only watched it half through and agree with the OP that I don’t think they totally hit the mark in terms of making sure those troubled will feel their questions have been properly heard and answered (as opposed to still somewhat misrepresented and then strawmen answered), but I do appreciate that they spent the time and effort. I think that’s an important outreach attempt to people often simply villainized and abandoned to struggle alone, and shows that the hearts of the CA crew are in the right place.

 

[Genesis315]

Interestingly, the German Catholic Bishops web site describes this item as " “Pachamama-Münze” which I understand translates as “Pachamama Coin”

Welp, I tried to give it the benefit of the doubt…

 

[phil3]

I cant say if Francis is a bad pope. But he interpretation of catholic teaching is from a peronista world view

 

[Inbonum]

That’s one mad Pachamama

 

[OKComputer]

I can’t help but think that the Catholics who critique Francis are sort of like those guys who are convinced that they could coach in the NFL even though they’ve never left the couch. He’s the Holy Father! Maybe he knows more than we do about how to run a church. I felt the same way about Benedict and JPII, for the record.

 

[MNathaniel]

I can’t help but think that the Catholics who critique Francis are sort of like those guys who are convinced that they could coach in the NFL even though they’ve never left the couch. He’s the Holy Father! Maybe he knows more than we do about how to run a church. I felt the same way about Benedict and JPII, for the record.

And I can’t help but wince when I read something that dismissive and insulting about strangers, and that unquestioning about the prudential judgement of religious leaders, just because they’re religious leaders.

As Catholics we believe the Holy Spirit protects the infallibility of Church teaching on matters of faith and morals. Not the impeccability or political excellence of her ministers.

Vatican II called for increasing participation by the laity. So the Church is going to get it. And that includes, e.g., holding bishops accountable for financial corruption and sexual abuse or errors in the oversight of same. And it doesn’t stop there.

I agree that the holy father is due our respect and charity. I also agree that we can presume the holy father, by virtue of the meetings he’s witness to behind closed doors etc, may know many things we don’t.

At the same time, sometimes the higher we climb in an organization the less we see and know what our direct circle doesn’t want us to see and know, and the more our sphere of possible choices and actions becomes limited and truly creative solutions harder to conceive. And every individual is already constrained in the first place by environment that raised them and other personal circumstances – including individuals who later receive holy orders. And many laity may know things the holy father doesn’t, simply by being different human individuals, and may have stronger skills in certain areas than the holy father has. And in the post-VII era when laity have been outright encouraged to take a more active role in the Church, in basically everything short of democratizing doctrinal teaching, the political and prudential critiques of ministerial actions are going to come up.

All this just to say: the reality isn’t a bunch of unemployed internet trolls sitting in cheetos dust complaining about some impeccable, prudentially and politically perfect vicar of Christ capable of doing no wrong (wow, even better than St. Peter in fact!). And while it’s not the opposite either (a sober cabinet of doctored philosophers and living saints unanimously agreed upon inarguable errors of an atheistic caveman who fell into an office for no reason), it’s insulting to talk as if one or the other is true.

Surely we should neither blindly assume the pope (or any bishop) is by default correct on an issue short of defining faith and morals according to the preserved deposit of faith – nor blindly assume they’re incorrect. Surely we should live with our eyes and ears open – and mouths, when necessary. To do that laity participation.

 

[Cruciferi]

Pretty sure Cyn and Joe are not reading on this forum.

Does anyone?

 

[Beryllos]

Glad you asked. While many of the Vatican State coins are religious (saints, popes, …), not all are. I’m curious what the limits are, and thought others might have an opinion on it.

 

[Beryllos]

laity participation

I tend to think of laity participation more in terms of faith building, evangelization, living one’s own life in the Christian way. Somehow it wouldn’t occur to me to watchdog, critique, or whistleblow the Church hierarchy. I don’t understand the fascination.

 

[MNathaniel]

Somehow it wouldn’t occur to me to watchdog, critique, or whistleblow the Church hierarchy. I don’t understand the fascination.

I mean, I think framing it as a “fascination” misrepresents what motivates whistleblowers and watchdogs in general.

 

[Beryllos]

I wonder what motivates Taylor Marshall or Michael Voris?

 

[pnewton]

If by on the Internet you mean the Vatican’s website?

You people always make passes at people who speak out against idolatry as if we are making it up, but we have video evidence, written evidence, and documents/writings from the Vatican that back us up.

It’s like when people cover there eyes and criticize people for pointing out blindingly obvious things.

. . . .
[/quote]

I do not believe you have posted here long enough to make generalizations about me.

I know what I said is not on the Vatican website. I thought it was clearly a joke, as Beethoven does not look like Medusa, I mentioned the Illuminati, and gave a tagline about the internet from a commercial.

 

[pnewton]

As to sitting in judgment of the Holy Father, I see time and history as the only way to know how his papacy will be seen. We can speculate, of course. My own opinion is influenced by history, in that one of our greatest Pope`s and saint, John Paul, had a lot of the same criticism.

Any further judgment is above my pay grade as a mortal.

 

[aroosi]

Context, context, context
Not sure if many of you are aware of it but there is a very famous and beautiful poem, written by Saint Francis of Assisi, called the canticle of the creatures. In the poem Saint Francis calls the earth ‘mother earth’ and I think the inspiration of Pope Francis is there, nothing to do with all the pachamama sensationalism.

Below the English translation of the poem

Most High, all powerful, good Lord,
Yours are the praises, the glory, the honour, and all blessing.

To You alone, Most High, do they belong,
and no man is worthy to mention Your name.

Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures,
especially through my lord Brother Sun,
who brings the day; and you give light through him.
And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendour!
Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
in heaven you formed them clear and precious and beautiful.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Wind,
and through the air, cloudy and serene,
and every kind of weather through which
You give sustenance to Your creatures.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Water,
which is very useful and humble and precious and chaste.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
through whom you light the night and he is beautiful
and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Mother Earth,
who sustains us and governs us and who produces
varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.

Praised be You, my Lord,
through those who give pardon for Your love,
and bear infirmity and tribulation.

Blessed are those who endure in peace
for by You, Most High, they shall be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord,
through our Sister Bodily Death,
from whom no living man can escape.

Woe to those who die in mortal sin.
Blessed are those who will
find Your most holy will,
for the second death shall do them no harm.

Praise and bless my Lord,
and give Him thanks
and serve Him with great humility.

 

[phil3]

. My own opinion is influenced by history, in that one of our greatest Pope`s and saint, John Paul, had a lot of the same criticism.

I love it when people are somehow trying to make Francis some internet version of JPII.

 

[pnewton]

I said nothing like that! Really?

Gee, excuse me for having an opinion.

They both did get a lot of this type of criticism. For those who are too young to know this, there is always Google. It is a comparison, and one which I remember well. There was an incident at Assisi, as well as the gift of the Koran, and that is just off the top of my head.

 

[phil19034]

Thanks, IanM.

How do you guys feel about Beethoven…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I’m honestly not a fan.

In my humble opinion, the only images should be of Christ, Popes, Saints, and other established Christian / Catholic art.

I don’t like it when random people (regardless of their fame) are on money.

 

[phil19034]

I wonder what motivates Taylor Marshall or Michael Voris?

Both of those guys used to be in very good standing with the bishops & were friends with lots of priests.

When you are in the know, you start to hear about corruption in the Church.

When they tried to address it correctly, they got shunned for it (or at least they fell like they did).

Me personally, I’ve heard things about a priest in a neighboring parish that’s completely sinful and scandalous. I was told by a staff member to keep it quiet. So it happens, and guys like Marshall and Voris used to hear a ton of these stories when they were welcomed in the mainstream. And they still hear a ton of these stories from their priest allies.

When you hear these things enough, it’s easy to get sick of it and assume than corruption isn’t just among a minority. You start seeing it everywhere and get very jaded.

 

[phil19034]

Context, context, context
Not sure if many of you are aware of it but there is a very famous and beautiful poem, written by Saint Francis of Assisi, called the canticle of the creatures. In the poem Saint Francis calls the earth ‘mother earth’ and I think the inspiration of Pope Francis is there, nothing to do with all the pachamama sensationalism.

Below the English translation of the poem

Most High, all powerful, good Lord,
Yours are the praises, the glory, the honour, and all blessing.

To You alone, Most High, do they belong,
and no man is worthy to mention Your name.

Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures,
especially through my lord Brother Sun,
who brings the day; and you give light through him.
And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendour!
Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
in heaven you formed them clear and precious and beautiful.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Wind,
and through the air, cloudy and serene,
and every kind of weather through which
You give sustenance to Your creatures.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Water,
which is very useful and humble and precious and chaste.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
through whom you light the night and he is beautiful
and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Mother Earth,
who sustains us and governs us and who produces
varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.

Praised be You, my Lord,
through those who give pardon for Your love,
and bear infirmity and tribulation.

Blessed are those who endure in peace
for by You, Most High, they shall be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord,
through our Sister Bodily Death,
from whom no living man can escape.

Woe to those who die in mortal sin.
Blessed are those who will
find Your most holy will,
for the second death shall do them no harm.

Praise and bless my Lord,
and give Him thanks
and serve Him with great humility.

His hymn is based on the Psalm.

But you have to remember that St Francis had NO interaction with the Amazon.

The problem with this coin is that it’s calling back to the Pachamama (according to the German Bishops), which scandalized a lot of faithful Catholics.

 

[MarysLurker]

I appreciate that Catholic Answers produced this episode. I am one of those people who is struggling with the teachings of Pope Francis. However–for the reasons the hosts give–I am NOT struggling with the office of the papacy or the validity of Vatican II or the teaching authority of the Church itself. Even so, I greatly appreciate that CA presented this refresher course on the fact that there have been very bad popes and that the Church has gotten through it just fine, because Christ keeps His promises.