Catholic Answers Focus: Is Francis a bad Pope?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dadrocks
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It should be noted that just because the website for an Episcopal Conference called it “pachamama coin”, doesn’t mean that the official name of the coin in the Vatican is such.

Specially since:
  1. We know some German Bishops tend to misinterpret things.
  2. We don’t even know who wrote that name. It could be a random IT guy or community manager working for a Bishop.
Personally, when I saw the coin I didn’t even think in the pachamama. I caught its symbolic value first, and I think it’s beautiful.
 
If one questions something from the current Pope, they only need to go to past Popes for clarity. The faith does not change.
 
It was a really good discussion and I enjoyed both Cy and Joe. Perhaps in another exposé they could address the gifts of Pope Francis also. The appreciation of St Francis of the natural world that God gave us. The love of Christ for sexual sinners like the prostitute being stoned. The material simplicity that isn’t an automatic hindrance to authority.

I’m one of those Ignation devotees that believes that we do well to ‘think with the Church’ and my life has been enriched and transformed by that.
 
Because he’s not as traditionalist as some Catholics had hoped for.

I know that’s an over-simplification but there are absolutely Catholics out there who still think Vatican II was a mistake and these ones tend to be especially critical of His Holiness.
 
Motherwit said:
Perhaps in another exposé they could address the gifts of Pope Francis also.
Click to expand...
Indeed. I happen to think that each pope has his own gifts. Are all John Paul II? Are all Benedict XVI? No, nor should they be. The Holy Spirit has chosen Pope Francis well for this time.
 
MNathaniel said:
I think that’s an important outreach attempt to people often simply villainized and abandoned to struggle alone, and shows that the hearts of the CA crew are in the right place.
Click to expand...
I see what you mean, but I do not know if this can be done over the internet. The internet acts as a negativity lens, both because anonymity allows people to avoid personal responsibility for their ideas, and because people tend to speak out about stuff that bothers them, not stuff they are okay with.
 
phil19034 said:
His hymn is based on the Psalm.

But you have to remember that St Francis had NO interaction with the Amazon.

The problem with this coin is that it’s calling back to the Pachamama (according to the German Bishops), which scandalized a lot of faithful Catholics.
Click to expand...
The second encyclical of Pope Francis is called ‘Laudato si’’. Laudato si’ means ‘Be praised’ in an old Italian poetic form and it is also the beginning of every paragraph of the poem Canticle of creatures written by Saint Francis of Assisi. No matter what German Bishops are saying, Pope Francis is inspired by Saint Francis of Assisi in the stewardship of creation, not by pachamama.

See poem in old Italian below

Altissimu, omnipotente bon Signore,
Tue so le laude, la gloria e l’honore et onne benedictione.

Ad Te solo, Altissimo, se konfano,
et nullu homo ène dignu te mentouare.

Laudato sie, mi Signore cum tucte le Tue creature,
spetialmente messor lo frate Sole,
lo qual è iorno, et allumini noi per lui.
Et ellu è bellu e radiante cum grande splendore:
de Te, Altissimo, porta significatione.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per sora Luna e le stelle:
in celu l’ài formate clarite et pretiose et belle.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per frate Uento
et per aere et nubilo et sereno et onne tempo,
per lo quale, a le Tue creature dài sustentamento.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per sor’Acqua,
la quale è multo utile et humile et pretiosa et casta.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per frate Focu,
per lo quale ennallumini la nocte:
ed ello è bello et iucundo et robustoso et forte.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per sora nostra matre Terra,
la quale ne sustenta et gouerna,
et produce diuersi fructi con coloriti fior et herba.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per quelli ke perdonano per lo Tuo amore
et sostengono infirmitate et tribulatione.

Beati quelli ke 'l sosterranno in pace,
ka da Te, Altissimo, sirano incoronati.

Laudato si mi Signore, per sora nostra Morte corporale,
da la quale nullu homo uiuente pò skappare:
guai a quelli ke morrano ne le peccata mortali;
beati quelli ke trouarà ne le Tue sanctissime uoluntati,
ka la morte secunda no 'l farrà male.*

Laudate et benedicete mi Signore et rengratiate
e seruiteli cum grande humilitate.
 
Last edited:
I looked up a picture of the coin in question. While I do not defend minting of coins, I note that Pachamama is not mentioned. The artists is from California. This might be a case of reading into a situation what one wants to see. The image of Mother Earth appears in many cultures, and was even used by St. Francis. Pope Francis (and St. Francis) might have been wrong for this, what ever “wrong” means, but it is not pagan idolatry.

Idolatry is a serious sin and a real issue in the world today. But this type of coin is not the money I associate with idolatry. I think we should be cautious of looking for pagan idolatry and missing the more real idolatry that is so pervasive in our own culture.
 
Last edited:
Here the official Vatican explanation of the ‘mother earth’ coin symbolism as reported in a website specialized in coins collections. The same website have also some technical data. Pretty impressive that nobody in US mentioned that the other coin part of the special edition is about rights of migrants…

Google translated in English the relevant paragraph.

"The celebration of life on Earth - as the Vatican comments on the coin - is a commitment to take care of the planet, it is the project to which the Church intends to offer its support, a grandiose and complex work: promoting international action to guarantee everyone the future, the food they need, both in quantity and quality, so that economic advancement is accompanied by social development, without which there is no real progress.

As you see no pachamama mention or intent of idolatry.

 
Last edited:
aroosi said:
40.png
phil19034:
His hymn is based on the Psalm.

But you have to remember that St Francis had NO interaction with the Amazon.

The problem with this coin is that it’s calling back to the Pachamama (according to the German Bishops), which scandalized a lot of faithful Catholics.
Click to expand...
The second encyclical of Pope Francis is called ‘Laudato si’’. Laudato si’ means ‘Be praised’ in an old Italian poetic form and it is also the beginning of every paragraph of the poem Canticle of creatures written by Saint Francis of Assisi. No matter what German Bishops are saying, Pope Francis is inspired by Saint Francis of Assisi in the stewardship of creation, not by pachamama.

See poem in old Italian below

Altissimu, omnipotente bon Signore,
Tue so le laude, la gloria e l’honore et onne benedictione.

Ad Te solo, Altissimo, se konfano,
et nullu homo ène dignu te mentouare.

Laudato sie, mi Signore cum tucte le Tue creature,
spetialmente messor lo frate Sole,
lo qual è iorno, et allumini noi per lui.
Et ellu è bellu e radiante cum grande splendore:
de Te, Altissimo, porta significatione.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per sora Luna e le stelle:
in celu l’ài formate clarite et pretiose et belle.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per frate Uento
et per aere et nubilo et sereno et onne tempo,
per lo quale, a le Tue creature dài sustentamento.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per sor’Acqua,
la quale è multo utile et humile et pretiosa et casta.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per frate Focu,
per lo quale ennallumini la nocte:
ed ello è bello et iucundo et robustoso et forte.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per sora nostra matre Terra,
la quale ne sustenta et gouerna,
et produce diuersi fructi con coloriti fior et herba.

Laudato si, mi Signore, per quelli ke perdonano per lo Tuo amore
et sostengono infirmitate et tribulatione.

Beati quelli ke 'l sosterranno in pace,
ka da Te, Altissimo, sirano incoronati.

Laudato si mi Signore, per sora nostra Morte corporale,
da la quale nullu homo uiuente pò skappare:
guai a quelli ke morrano ne le peccata mortali;
beati quelli ke trouarà ne le Tue sanctissime uoluntati,
ka la morte secunda no 'l farrà male.*

Laudate et benedicete mi Signore et rengratiate
e seruiteli cum grande humilitate.
Click to expand...
I don’t disagree with this. Of course he’s inspired by St Francis of Assisi.

I was only referring to the issue with the coin, not the Pope.

During that whole pachamama thing, the Pope looked very uncomfortable. Yes, he was mad when someone threw the pachamamas in the river because the pope likes to be very welcoming to others.

I don’t personally believe he’s a fan of the whole pachamama thing, but the coin does call back to that.

St Francis loves colorful language, but I doubt St Francis would have been comfortable with the pachamama statues & his order sure wasn’t when the arrived on the South American continent.
 
Last edited:
Beryllos said:
Well, if Fr. Z says it, it must be 100% true, right?
Click to expand...
Did you read the article? He actually posted the JPEG version of the official flyer the Jesuits created to promote this.

Here’s the flyer the Jesuits created

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I’m all for being good stewards of the Earth, but I’m not for promoting Pachamama… and this time, they are not even trying to pretend it’s the Blessed Mother!

Ugh

May God have mercy on us
 
Last edited:
Yes, I read it, I saw it. Scarce detail. Unidentified source. Which Jesuits? And so on.

All I got out of it is that Nick Donnelly posted an image with no source info, so I can’t fact check.
 
Last edited:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, & talks like a duck, it must be a dog.
 
Beryllos said:
Yes, I read it, I saw it. Scarce detail. Unidentified source. Which Jesuits? And so on.

All I got out of it is that Nick Donnelly posted an image with no source info, so I can’t fact check.
Click to expand...
It was the province for Latin America and the Caribbean.

The event was on August 1st and the flyer was from before that. They don’t seem to have it anymore on their site.

I don’t know if they removed it on their own before or after the event, or if someone told them to remove it, etc.?

But it’s surely scandalous.

Even if it’s really not idolatry, it’s honestly too close and sends extremely mixed messages.

I pray that they stop and focus on what the Bible says about the environment and not what a native religion says about it.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if you would condemn also Pope Gregory III who upon understanding the pagan ritual of Samhain (ie. to welcome in the harvest and usher in “the dark half of the year.” Celebrants believe that the barriers between the physical world and the spirit world break down during Samhain, allowing more interaction between humans and denizens of the Otherworld.) So the Pope designated 1 November as All Saints Day, incorporating some of the relevant spiritual rituals of the pagan festival to serve the Christian spirituality. ie Halloween

Protestants normally were the ones with this irrational terror of the spiritual world. Now we have Catholics seeming to have adopted that.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top