Catholic Answers Focus: Is Francis a bad Pope?

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goout
I’m glad you feel comfortable enough to say exactly what you think. Although, I doubt the 99.9% of those “uneducated Laity” would agree you have the right to tell anyone to mind their own business in a public forum where I’m free to share my thoughts just as you are. You have several other options other than choosing to be rude, and attempting to cancel someone else’s thoughts. With all the feedback I’ve seen about this post, which I’m sure you’ve read, I have to ask, are you admonishing me for my benefit, or your own. We can not see all ends, or what is fruitful for the kingdom or not. Thanks anyway for your thoughts, and May God bless you in your efforts to raise fruitful children and get your spouse to heaven.
 
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Dadrocks said:
goout
I’m glad you feel comfortable enough to say exactly what you think. Although, I doubt the 99.9% of those “uneducated Laity” would agree you have the right to tell anyone to mind their own business in a public forum where I’m free to share my thoughts just as you are. You have several other options other than choosing to be rude, and attempting to cancel someone else’s thoughts. With all the feedback I’ve seen about this post, which I’m sure you’ve read, I have to ask, are you admonishing me for my benefit, or your own. We can not see all ends, or what is fruitful for the kingdom or not. Thanks anyway for your thoughts, and May God bless you in your efforts to raise fruitful children and get your spouse to heaven.
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But you must surely agree that if the likes of Taylor Marshall and yourself are free to admonish the Pope in public, others who find that behavior unacceptable and destructive to the faith are also free to admonish you too?
 
pnewton said:
Those are still opinions, not object truth.
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The corruption in the Vatican Bank is out of control, as the recent scandal with Ex Cardinal Becciu confirms, and has been for a long time.

The Pachamama ceremony was a disaster, and should never have taken place, let alone in the heart of the Church, regardless of the intentions of the celebrants.

The Provisional Agreement with China has effectively thrown Catholics in China under the bus, and the Church has received absolutely nothing in return,; with persecution of the Church having worsened since the Agreement was signed.

These are objective facts, not mere opinions. There is absolutely no way to put a positive “spin” on these unfortunate developments, and trying to do so does not do a service either to the Church or the Pope.
 
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Johann_du_Toit said:
These are objective facts, not mere opinions.
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Since we do not agree on the basic definition of words, I can think of no response. I prefer to always be careful not to elevate my own opinions so high. Exercising charity by avoiding rash judgment is not “spin.” It is an act of spiritual humility.
 
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pnewton said:
Exercising charity by avoiding rash judgment is not “spin.” It is an act of spiritual humility.
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Avoiding rash judgement has to be balanced. Catechesis knows the list of nine ways to become accessory to another’s sins, which include “by silence” and “by defending”.
 
The catechism
Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them :
  • by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
  • by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
  • by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
  • by protecting evil-doers.
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Three points here: the moral point is that this only applies as far as one has an obligation, as in one in authority of the pope, or in the case of cardinals share collegiality.

The first logical point is that it totally, completely, and oh-so-obviously begs the question.

The second logical point is that no one is exactly talking to the pope, as much as talking about the pope. This is more akin to gossip than admonishment.
 
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I don’t think Francis is a bad Pope but I do think this is a bad papacy thanks to the disastrous prelates that surround him.
 
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If you look at this, does it have any hint of Christianity? Any hint of Christian imagery? Could it just as easily been put out by some pagan organization, if you didn’t see the words or know what the words mean?
I realize that the back has the Vatican seal (?) (edit - Pope Francis’ Coat of Arms) on it.
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Fauken said:
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27lw:
I realize that the back has the Vatican seal (?) on it.
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That’s the Coat of Arms for Pope Francis.
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Thank you!
 
pnewton said:
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Johann_du_Toit:
These are objective facts, not mere opinions.
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Since we do not agree on the basic definition of words, I can think of no response. I prefer to always be careful not to elevate my own opinions so high. Exercising charity by avoiding rash judgment is not “spin.” It is an act of spiritual humility.
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But he’s right. Corruption in the Vatican, the betrayal of the Church in China and the presence of Pachamamas in the Vatican are objective facts. And that they are disasters is also hardly a matter of opinion.
 
What’s with this?: National Catholic Register - Pope Francis Calls for Civil Union Law for Same-Sex Couples, in Shift From Vatican Stance

#1: “ROME — In a documentary that premiered Wednesday in Rome, Pope Francis called for the passage of civil union laws for same-sex couples, departing from the position of the Vatican’s doctrinal office and the pope’s predecessors on the issue.”

#2: “After those remarks, and in comments likely to spark controversy among Catholics, Pope Francis weighed in directly on the issue of civil unions for same-sex couples.”

“What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered,” the pope said. “I stood up for that.”"
 
So Becciu forcibly renounces, and Pope Francis meets with Cardinal Pell, who apparently is not corrupt, but you still blame Francis for corruption?

Also, you are only listing the negative things; critics of Pope Francis always like to accumulate these alledged “failings”, but never mention how, under Francis’ Pontificate:

-Ecumenism with the Eastern Orhodox has improved and the SSPX is in a more regular situation canonically.

-Relationships with Islam have improved.

-Care for the Environment has been dedicated a whole Encyclical for the first time, gaining weight within the Social Doctrine.

-The Vatican has crafted some successful diplomatic pacts, including one between Cuba and the US.

-The first meeting to treat the sexual abuse crisis has been held (many critiziced it but it’s a step forward for the Papacy to deal with the problem).

-The Pope has launched various programs to improve education through the world (like Scholas Occurrentes).

All in all, there may be controversial things done under Pope Francis, but there are many more positive ones, that don’t get mentioned as much.
 
Ironically it seems the people who think Trump is a truly great President are the ones who think Francis is a truly bad Pope, and vice versa.
 
Dadrocks said:
Motherwit,

You are right, but I did not attempt to cancel anyone, in fact I encouraged further discussion. goout’s message was based on personal assumptions. It was more muted and “politely” stated than this, but effectively said:

Shut up. You don’t have the education to know what your talking about, you’re not helping anyone, and you have no right posting here.

goout’s message is an example of the oversensitive cancel culture we live in today, and I thought it right to point that out.
I appreciate your feedback, and God bless.
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So do you want to respond to what I actually said? If not that’s ok. I don’t want to violate your space.
 
AlbMagno said:
So Becciu forcibly renounces, and Pope Francis meets with Cardinal Pell, who apparently is not corrupt, but you still blame Francis for corruption?
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I don’t think it is fair to charge the loyal opposition to Pope Francis with thinking that the Pope himself is the problem. The parliamentary opposition in a Westminster government charge the ruling party, not the sovereign, with bad leadership. Nobody calls them traitors or rebels for doing so.
 
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I dont find it ironic at all that people who think Francis is a great Pope, Hate Donald Trump. I dont find it strange those people are also wanting a very strong central government.
 
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