Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?

[tmac1956]

Dan:
snip…
Therefore it is the Catholic position that the judgment that happens a split second after one dies is merely a judgment as to where one goes (ie heaven or hell) but not the final condition of the person because that depends on what happens later?

No. That is not the Catholic position.

snip…
Could someone go from Purgatory to Hell?

Nope - a soul either goes to Heaven or to Hell. Many who go to Heaven must undergo purgation first, but they are Heaven bound none-the-less (remember that purgatory is part of heaven). However, if one goes to Hell, that is where one will spend eternity.

 

[Dan_Parker]

tmac1956:
No. That is not the Catholic position.

Dan:
I have been discussing this with Tomster and he is Catholic and said that the judgment
occurs the split second after they die in this post.

Tomster:

The Catholic Church teaches that the split second after a person dies his soul is judged.
The soul of that person will be reunited with his body on the Last Day.

Why do you disagree with that?

 

[SD_Catholic]

tmac1956:
No. That is not the Catholic position.

Dan:
I have been discussing this with Tomster and he is Catholic and said that the judgment
occurs the split second after they die in this post.

Why do you disagree with that?

I would imagine it was the use of your wording that was the issue Dan… your words and that of Tomster’s are not the same… You’ve added words to the phrase that you’ve given tmac. If you want a concrete answer it might work better to ask the question without giving your own answer within the question. Perhaps this was unintentional, and I’m sure tmac will give you the same answer as Tomster if given the same question.

SD

 

[Dan_Parker]

I would imagine it was the use of your wording that was the issue Dan… your words and that of Tomster’s are not the same… You’ve added words to the phrase that you’ve given tmac. If you want a concrete answer it might work better to ask the question without giving your own answer within the question. Perhaps this was unintentional, and I’m sure tmac will give you the same answer as Tomster if given the same question.

SD

Someone will need to show me the difference. I cannot see it and you have not explained it.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Someone will need to show me the difference. I cannot see it and you have not explained it.

I seem to doubt you can’t see the difference, but for what it’s worth… You add “but not the final condition of the person because that depends on what happens later?”… Every person here has told you Purgatory is like the entrance into heaven. No one has ever left a doubt that it means anything other than that you are already bound for heaven… Purgatory is not a second chance at a better judgement, if you’re in Purgatory you have already been judged worthy of your eternal reward. Purgatory just means your soul is being purified before entering. Only 2 sides… hell on one side and purgatory/heaven on the other (you’ll notice purgatory and heaven are on the same side).

SD

 

[tmac1956]

tmac1956:
No. That is not the Catholic position.

Dan:
I have been discussing this with Tomster and he is Catholic and said that the judgment
occurs the split second after they die in this post.

Why do you disagree with that?

I don’t disagree with that. I may have missed this in earlier posts, but perhaps no one has explained that the Catholic Church holds to two judgements. I know that your don’t like to debate with links, so I have copied two very small sections directly from New Advent.org that I think will help explain the Catholic position on judgement. The two judgements are particluar and general:

1. Particular Judgment
   “Dogma of particular judgment
   The Catholic doctrine of the particular judgment is this: that immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God. Although there has been no formal definition on this point, the dogma is clearly implied in the Union Decree of Eugene IV (1439), which declares that souls leaving their bodies in a state of grace, but in need of purification are cleansed in Purgatory, whereas souls that are perfectly pure are at once admitted to the beatific vision of the Godhead (ipsum Deum unum et trinum) and those who depart in actual mortal sin, or merely with original sin, are at once consigned to eternal punishment, the quality of which corresponds to their sin (paenis tamen disparibus). The doctrine is also in the profession of faith of Michael Palaeologus in 1274, in the Bull ‘Benedictus Deus’ of Benedict XII, in 1336, and in the professions of faith of Gregory XIII and Benedict XIV.”
   (newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm)
2. General Judgment
   “The belief in the general judgment has prevailed at all times and in all places within the Church. It is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds: “He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead” (Apostles’ Creed). He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead” (Nicene Creed). “From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds” (Athanasian Creed). Relying on the authority of Papias, several Fathers of the first four centuries advanced the theory of a thousand years’ terrestrial reign of Christ with the saints to precede the end of the World (see article on MILLENNIUM). Though this idea is interwoven with the eschatological teachings of those writers, it in no way detracted from their belief in a universal world-judgment. Patristic testimony to this dogma is clear and unanimous."
   (newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm)

Unlike many here, I am but a novice apologist (having come into the Church less than two years ago), but I honestly hope this helps to at least explain the Catholic position. If I am wrong on any of this, I know my excellent brothers and sisters here will correct me.

 

[Tomster]

The divine judgment is the accounting for one’s own life, which every man must render after death to God, Lord and supreme Judge, to receive reward or punishment according to his merits. Judgment is twofold: particular and universal.

Particular judgment will take place immediately after death, as is proved (a) from Holy Scripture: the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, of whom the first dies and goes to hell, the other to Abraham’s bosom (paradise), two places eternally separated by an impassable abyss; St. Paul, close to death, yearned for the “crown of justice,” which Christ the Judge will give him and those who will have lived like him (2 Timothy 4:6); elsewhere he says explicitly: “It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). (b) Tradition declares itself clearly and explicitly from the fourth century: St. Hilary; “The day of judgment is the eternal retribution either or felicity or of punishment.” St. Augustine distinguishes the judgment that follows death immediately when the souls have gone out of their bodies (de corporis exierint), and the universal judgment which will take place after the resurrection of the bodies. (c) The magisterium of the Church confirms this truth especially in the II Council of Lyons (1274), in a bull of Benedict XII (1336), and in the Council of Florence. (d) Reason recognizes the necessity of a divine sanction and, therefore, of a divine judgment on the use made of the gift of life and its powers.

Universal judgment is a truth of faith (cf. the Creed: “[Christ] will come to judge the living and the dead”). In Matthew 25, we find a lifelike description of it. St. Paul, on several occassions (2 Corinthians 10; Romans 14:10; 2 Thessalonians 1-2, etc.), refers to it. St. Augustine expounds systematically the traditonal doctrine (De Civitate Dei, XX, 30): The Judge will be the Man-God, who will appear on the clouds of heaven, accompanied by the angels, and will manifest, confirming them, the verdicts of the particular judgments.

cont.

 

[Tomster]

Purgatory is the place and state in which the souls of the just who died in venial sin and with the debt of temporal punishment for grave sins remitted, are subjected to purifying sufferings until, having paid their debt, they are worthy of paradise. The existence of purgatory is a truth of faith defined by the Council of Trent.

Holy Scripture: “It is . . . a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sin” (2 Mach. 12:46). St. Paul (1 Corinthians 3:11ff) speaks of those who, having some remnants of sin mixed with good works, will be saved in the next life quasi per ignem (through fire).

Tradition: In the first centuries there was no EXPLICIT doctrine on purgatory, but they had the liturgical usage of prayers for the dead, reflected also in the epigraphy of the Catacombs. From the time of St. Augustine the doctrine of purgatory was developed, which continues substantially unchanged in the East and the West. The Scholastics treat of purgatory as of something belonging to the doctrine of faith. Luther and Calvin were wrong, therefore, in rejecting purgatory as a diabolic invention.

The Church, while defending the existence of purgatory, has not defined explicitly what its pains are: incidental mention is made of fire in I Council of Lyon, in a Letter of Clement VI. Certainly there is in purgatory a temporary pain of loss (poena damni - privation of the vision and possession of God), mitigated by the sure hope of entering paradise after due expiation. A pain of sense (poena sensus) commonly is admitted by the Fathers and theologians, fire not excluded. Purgatory will last only to the day of judgment.

Hope this helps! :tiphat:

 

[Dan_Parker]

I seem to doubt you can’t see the difference, but for what it’s worth… You add “but not the final condition of the person because that depends on what happens later?”… Every person here has told you Purgatory is like the entrance into heaven. No one has ever left a doubt that it means anything other than that you are already bound for heaven… Purgatory is not a second chance at a better judgement, if you’re in Purgatory you have already been judged worthy of your eternal reward. Purgatory just means your soul is being purified before entering. Only 2 sides… hell on one side and purgatory/heaven on the other (you’ll notice purgatory and heaven are on the same side).

SD

I understand, however my question/point was this: If they are judged, then this must not include the length of time they will be in purgatory or the harshness of the refining process because Catholics teach that praying for them gets them out of Purgatory sooner, correct?

 

[Dan_Parker]

Purgatory is the place and state in which the souls of the just who died in venial sin and with the debt of temporal punishment for grave sins remitted, are subjected to purifying sufferings until, having paid their debt, they are worthy of paradise. The existence of purgatory is a truth of faith defined by the Council of Trent.

Holy Scripture: “It is . . . a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sin” (2 Mach. 12:46). St. Paul (1 Corinthians 3:11ff) speaks of those who, having some remnants of sin mixed with good works, will be saved in the next life quasi per ignem (through fire).

Tradition: In the first centuries there was no EXPLICIT doctrine on purgatory, but they had the liturgical usage of prayers for the dead, reflected also in the epigraphy of the Catacombs. From the time of St. Augustine the doctrine of purgatory was developed, which continues substantially unchanged in the East and the West. The Scholastics treat of purgatory as of something belonging to the doctrine of faith. Luther and Calvin were wrong, therefore, in rejecting purgatory as a diabolic invention.

The Church, while defending the existence of purgatory, has not defined explicitly what its pains are: incidental mention is made of fire in I Council of Lyon, in a Letter of Clement VI. Certainly there is in purgatory a temporary pain of loss (poena damni - privation of the vision and possession of God), mitigated by the sure hope of entering paradise after due expiation. A pain of sense (poena sensus) commonly is admitted by the Fathers and theologians, fire not excluded. Purgatory will last only to the day of judgment.

Hope this helps! :tiphat:

Thanks for the text. I read it but don’t expect me to memorize it or retain all of it. One thing this confirms for me is that the very early Church did not teach it which supports my theory that the farther back one gets to the apostles, the closer their theology resembles that of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

[Zundrah]

You can. Your spirituality is your own. Everyone is different. Some catholics I know dont pray to saints much at all, some have 1 or 2, and others are saint crazy. Spirituality plays a roll in this. The answer is yes you can, the question should be are you able?

I have made my mind up; I’m remaining protestant (methodist). This sunday I wil visit an Anglican church though just for curiousity sake. That’s not the point, look below;

John 6:60-70 (New International Version)

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

 

[Zundrah]

We have gone off - topic, so I will ask this question (on - topic), how is it that catholicism allows us to say “Oh man, john died not very long ago. He did some very kind and charatible things why hey, why don’t we call him a saint and start praying to him”?

Do you see what I’m getting at?

 

[Tomster]

Thanks for the text. I read it but don’t expect me to memorize it or retain all of it. One thing this confirms for me is that the very early Church did not teach it which supports my theory that the farther back one gets to the apostles, the closer their theology resembles that of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I wouldn’t expect you to memorize it Dan. The least you could have done was read it, but,
which I now know you did not do.

Since when, BTW, did the JW’s ever have a consistent theology?

 

[Dan_Parker]

I wouldn’t expect you to memorize it Dan. The least you could have done was read it, but,
which I now know you did not do.

Since when, BTW, did the JW’s ever have a consistent theology?

I am not sure how you are applying the word “consistent,” however if going backwards to the apostles in time gets us closer to JW theology then we would also expect that at a particular point in time true Christianity would start to approach the true apostolic teaching again. – DRA Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.

 

[SD_Catholic]

I have made my mind up; I’m remaining protestant (methodist). This sunday I wil visit an Anglican church though just for curiousity sake. That’s not the point, look below;

John 6:60-70 (New International Version)

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

You’re right it is off topic, but just so it doesn’t go unnoticed… By highlighting what you did you must be saying that he is saying his words are only symbolic and that the “Bread of Life” isn’t actually what we Catholics claim it is? So if you can answer this one simple question (doesn’t even have to be to me, just honestly satisfy yourself)… using the same verses you quoted, you should be able to explain why Jesus let those disciples leave over a simple misunderstanding. When ever Jesus explains using symbols people either understand or he describes it more clearly… all he does here is repeat himself over and over, and doesn’t think twice about stopping those who choose to leave over his suggested message. Jesus isn’t the type to let people abandon him over a simple misunderstood teaching.

Also you’ll remember they accused him of cannibalism… If he only meant it symbolically why would they accuse him of that. If they all understood it to be symbolic there would be no need to think of him as teaching cannibalism.

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

We have gone off - topic, so I will ask this question (on - topic), how is it that catholicism allows us to say “Oh man, john died not very long ago. He did some very kind and charatible things why hey, why don’t we call him a saint and start praying to him”?

Do you see what I’m getting at?

Just so you realize the process of being canonized a saint doesn’t happen over night ( you can read up on it)… “Nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit”… a close examination of that person’s life can show if they were saintly people.

Why at a Methodist funeral does the pastor usually talk about the one that is deceased as being in heaven (which would make them a saint)? If not always than atleast when he feels he knew the person well enough to assume they are in heaven. Not a whole lot of difference here, except the CC canonizes certain saints that they feel would serve as excellent role models for other Christians to follow their examples of faith.

SD

 

[Zundrah]

You’re right it is off topic, but just so it doesn’t go unnoticed… By highlighting what you did you must be saying that he is saying his words are only symbolic and that the “Bread of Life” isn’t actually what we Catholics claim it is? So if you can answer this one simple question (doesn’t even have to be to me, just honestly satisfy yourself)… using the same verses you quoted, you should be able to explain why Jesus let those disciples leave over a simple misunderstanding. When ever Jesus explains using symbols people either understand or he describes it more clearly… all he does here is repeat himself over and over, and doesn’t think twice about stopping those who choose to leave over his suggested message. Jesus isn’t the type to let people abandon him over a simple misunderstood teaching.

Also you’ll remember they accused him of cannibalism… If he only meant it symbolically why would they accuse him of that. If they all understood it to be symbolic there would be no need to think of him as teaching cannibalism.

SD

Try to follow me here;

John 6:60-70 (New International Version)

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

That is why they walked away, because they did not have ears to hear the words of God.

 

[Zundrah]

Just so you realize the process of being canonized a saint doesn’t happen over night ( you can read up on it)… “Nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit”… a close examination of that person’s life can show if they were saintly people.

Why at a Methodist funeral does the pastor usually talk about the one that is deceased as being in heaven (which would make them a saint)? If not always than atleast when he feels he knew the person well enough to assume they are in heaven. Not a whole lot of difference here, except the CC canonizes certain saints that they feel would serve as excellent role models for other Christians to follow their examples of faith.

SD

You explained yourself well but what I was asking for was why and how you “know” that you can “pray” to them…

 

[panevino]

You explained yourself well but what I was asking for was why and how you “know” that you can “pray” to them…

The verse from rev clearly show elders holding the prayers of saints in there hands before the throne.
They got them somehow.
Even if you are not convinced about them being able to hear
this verse at the least shows that they can gather them.

Revelation 5:8 8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. …

Notice they each have “bowls” plural

2 Let my prayer be set forth as incense before thee…Psalm 141:2

 

[Zundrah]

The verse from rev clearly show elders holding the prayers of saints in there hands before the throne.
They got them somehow.
Even if you are not convinced about them being able to hear
this verse at the least shows that they can gather them.

But who decides whether or not you may “pray” to someone just because they were a good person? If that is the case then I should just pray to my granmother right now.