Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?

[SD_Catholic]

But who decides whether or not you may “pray” to someone just because they were a good person? If that is the case then I should just pray to my granmother right now.

Go for it:thumbsup:!!! If you feel she’s in heaven then why not? If she isn’t there (God forbid) or can’t hear you, then what are you out? 5 minutes of peaceful prayer time you spent reflecting on your grandmother’s wonderful life?

SD

 

[panevino]

But who decides whether or not you may “pray” to someone just because they were a good person? If that is the case then I should just pray to my granmother right now.

apologies zundrah, my response was actually meant for Dan, given some of his comments several pages back…
I guess it was still relevant to your comments.

Acts 8:24 – a guy called simon asks the apostle Peter to pray for him… “Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me…”

its been detailed before in this thread but catholics believe those that have died and are in heaven are still ‘living’ and remain a connected part of the body.

dont think anyone would argue that Mary is in heaven…
the canonized ‘Saints’ are belived to be in heaven also based on the authority given to the church (ie: keys/bind and loose etc…) when they do canonize.

 

[Dan_Parker]

The verse from rev clearly show elders holding the prayers of saints in there hands before the throne.
They got them somehow.
Even if you are not convinced about them being able to hear
this verse at the least shows that they can gather them.

Revelation 5:8 8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of** incense, which are the prayers** of the saints. …

Notice they each have “bowls” plural

2 Let my prayer be set forth as incense before thee…Psalm 141:2

Do you believe the incense is really the prayers and don’t represent the prayers? Revelation is highly symbolic.

Also see the NAB footnote:

NAB Psalm 141:2 (1 )Let my prayer be incense before you; my uplifted hands an evening sacrifice.

NAB Notes (Psa 141:2)
<1> Incense: literally, “smoke,” i.e., the fragrant fumes arising from the altar at the burning of sacrificial animals or of aromatic spices; also used in Rev 5:8 as a symbol of prayer. My uplifted hands: the gesture of supplication. Cf Psalm 28:2; 63:5; 88:10; 119:48; 134:2; 143

It seems that they each have a bowl of incense because these are **their **prayers.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Try to follow me here;

John 6:60-70 (New International Version)

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

That is why they walked away, because they did not have ears to hear the words of God.

I honestly don’t see your point… but I think you’re saying again that it was a mere symbolic message? But you must remember that some of these people had been following him for a long time and heard and seen all kinds of things… why would a symbolic message such as this send them away? They had heard and seen a lot crazier things than this and stuck around, why would some reference to him being the the giver of life using a symbolic meal of bread be such an over the top statement that they could no longer believe in him. If that’s what you’re saying… that this symbolic discourse of him being the spiritual life giver was so outrageous that his disciples couldn’t believe him for it. These men were already his disciples, not just some crowd of onlookers that had gathered around for a first time show.

Everything Jesus talked about was spiritual. His only concern was our spiritual well being. His mission (aside from dying for our sins) was to teach us how to live in the way that was in the best interest of our souls… mold the path for which we are to follow. If the part that says “the flesh is of no avail”, is what convinces you than you must first answer what “flesh” he is referring to? Ours? well that wouldn’t be any shocker since it is our souls that he is most concerned about (as we should be), but that wouldn’t nulify the importance of his “flesh”… Is he referring to his flesh? Well that wouldn’t make much sense to say that about his own flesh, because at the beginning of John we know that the “word became flesh”… we both believe the word became “flesh” in the form of Jesus to save us from our sins, quite an important role of the “flesh” I would say. So either way we look at it, it doesn’t seem to support a symbolic view of his constant preaching of him being the “bread of life”. Something kinda interesting is to read through John 6 and count how many time Jesus is referred to as the “bread”.

SD

 

[panevino]

The verse from rev clearly show elders holding the prayers of saints in there hands before the throne.
They got them somehow.
Even if you are not convinced about them being able to hear
this verse at the least shows that they can gather them.

Revelation 5:8 8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. …

Notice they each have “bowls” plural

2 Let my prayer be set forth as incense before thee…Psalm 141:2

Do you believe the incense is really the prayers and don’t represent the prayers? Revelation is highly symbolic.

somehow they can take this form, it is pretty clearly described that way in psalm 141:2, copied above, and then backedup in Rev 5:8 “and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…”

From what I have read of your comments I know you are not convinced that these saints in heaven can hear the individual prayers…

but at least the revelation quote shows a collection of prayers in thier hands, who knows how they gather them…, but they appear to have them in Rev…

in luke 16:25, it is pretty clear that abraham is able to reflect on the earthly lives of the richman and lazarus, illustrating an awareness of what is happening on earth…

also moses and Elijah appear to jesus on earth in front of Peter, James and John and spoke to jesus luke 9:30

 

[Dan_Parker]

somehow they can take this form, it is pretty clearly described that way in psalm 141:2, copied above, and then backedup in Rev 5:8 “and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…”

From what I have read of your comments I know you are not convinced that these saints in heaven can hear the individual prayers…

but at least the revelation quote shows a collection of prayers in thier hands, who knows how they gather them…, but they appear to have them in Rev…

in luke 16:25, it is pretty clear that abraham is able to reflect on the earthly lives of the richman and lazarus, illustrating an awareness of what is happening on earth…

also moses and Elijah appear to jesus on earth in front of Peter, James and John and spoke to jesus luke 9:30

Dan:
You have not acknowledged the connection that I found in the NAB from Psalms that incense depicts the prayers of the individual. You say they collected the prayers, but the text says nothing of the sort. Harmonizing with Psalms as the NAB footnote indicates leads to the conclusion that the incense represents their own prayers.

 

[panevino]

Dan:

You have not acknowledged the connection that I found in the NAB from Psalms that incense depicts the prayers of the individual.

I have not seen you post on this, can you let me know the id#.
psalm 141:2 is definately an individuals prayer, no doubt about that.
but, the rev 5:8 verse mentiones that they have prayers of saints plural. I do see your point, and i am looking further. though I note rev 8:3 is very similar and it talks about 1 angel offering more prayers on the alter of more than 1 saint.
*Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints *on the golden altar which was before the throne. NASB rev8:#

You say they collected the prayers, but the text says nothing of the sort.

 

[SD_Catholic]

panevino

Was just going to remind you that Dan doesn’t believe that the saints are in heaven yet… which would greatly hamper somebody in understanding how they could hear our prayers.

Just in case you were unaware

SD

 

[Dan_Parker]

panevino:

I have not seen you post on this, can you let me know the id#.

Dan:
It is in this post.

panevino:
psalm 141:2 is definately an individuals prayer, no doubt about that.

Dan:
The NAB footnotes Psalm 141:2 with Rev 5:8. They each have a bowl, they each have their own prayers.

panevino:
but, the rev 5:8 verse mentiones that they have prayers of saints plural. I do see your point, and i am looking further. though I note rev 8:3 is very similar and it talks about 1 angel offering more prayers on the alter of more than 1 saint.
*Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. *NASB rev8:#

panevino:
rev5:8 clearly says they have them in bowls in thier hands. if you dont like the word gathered, thats ok, but somehow they do have them.

Dan:
The incense is symbolic of prayers. Making a doctrine out a verse in a highly symbolic book is not a good hermeneutic. If there are other passages, I predict they will also be either symbol isms or parables.

panevino:
the pslam verse requests the prayer to be offered as incense.
the elders and the angel are clearly participating by offering prayers as incense…clearly the angel is not offering his own.

Dan:
**Do you pray to angels? ** I was not aware of that.

 

[zapaleda]

To Whom should we pray?
There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by them to justify their position says the following:

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,” (Rev. 19:10).

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.

Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship. All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their god(s) since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc., things which are received and answered by God, not by created things. Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face. Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord and not to a friend who’s in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone – or in heaven. Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry. Prayer should be offered only to God, and the Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of its false and idolatrous practice of praying to the saints.

 

[Tomster]

To Whom should we pray?
There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by them to justify their position says the following:

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,” (Rev. 19:10).

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.

Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship. All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their god(s) since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc., things which are received and answered by God, not by created things. Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face. Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord and not to a friend who’s in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone – or in heaven. Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry. Prayer should be offered only to God, and the Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of its false and idolatrous practice of praying to the saints.

It would be in your best interest to make a self directed study on the Church’s teaching of the Communion of Saints before you say anything else.

Just a suggestion.

 

[SD_Catholic]

To Whom should we pray?
There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by them to justify their position says the following:

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,” (Rev. 19:10).

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.

Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship. All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their god(s) since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc., things which are received and answered by God, not by created things. Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face. Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord and not to a friend who’s in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone – or in heaven. Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry. Prayer should be offered only to God, and the Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of its false and idolatrous practice of praying to the saints.

Well I guess the Early Church Fathers (canonized your Bible) and Christians for 1500 years (before the reformation) forgot to ask for your definition of “prayer”. They seemed to think it had a dual meaning, who reversed it’s meaning and when? Check out the Webster dictionary’s definition of prayer… The CC has understood different meanings of prayer for 2000 years. Prayer to God is much different than prayer to saints… PRAYER TO SAINTS IS NOT WORSHIPPING THEM!!!

Would it make you feel better if it read, “can we ask saints to pray to God for us”?.. I highly doubt that’s your only problem with the CC by the way you address the Catholic Church in only 9 posts. There’s plenty of info available at the top of this website to help you understand what the CC really teaches, perhaps you could briefly look at that info and then comment on it.

or just what Tomster said way faster than me

SD

 

[Tomster]

I am not sure how you are applying the word “consistent,” however if going backwards to the apostles in time gets us closer to JW theology then we would also expect that at a particular point in time true Christianity would start to approach the true apostolic teaching again. – DRA Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.

Let’s face it, Dan, the reality is that you are not really sure of very much. JW tradition started with Mr. Russell back in the late 19th century. Your’s is simply a man made sect wandering in the darkness trying to re-invent Holy Scripture.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Let’s face it, Dan, the reality is that you are not really sure of very much. JW tradition started with Mr. Russell back in the late 19th century. Your’s is simply a man made sect wandering in the darkness trying to re-invent Holy Scripture.

Actually it did not start with Russell, even in what we might consider recent history. There were men immediately before him such as Henry Grew and George Storrs. I am also convinced that Isaac Newton was of the anointed class in the line leading up to Russell. There are many more.

 

[AwGusTeen]

snip…
Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship. **All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their god(s) **since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc., things which are received and answered by God, not by created things. Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face. Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord and not to a friend who’s in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone – or in heaven. Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry. Prayer should be offered only to God, and the Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of its false and idolatrous practice of praying to the saints.

Your statement is false. The Catholic Church does not believe this. First of all, your definition of the word “pray” as a single act of worships is incorrect.

(From Merriam Webster) merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray
transitive verb
1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Secondly, you might want to look at how the Catholic Church uses prayer regarding the Saints, Mary and God. (These terms are from the Greek)

dulia: the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship
hyperdulia: special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus
latria: the honor that is due to God alone

If you want to investiage further, you can go here:
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

 

[twb1621]

Actually it did not start with Russell, even in what we might consider recent history. There were men immediately before him such as Henry Grew and George Storrs. I am also convinced that Isaac Newton was of the anointed class in the line leading up to Russell. There are many more.

You are convinced of a great many things, but as many others have been tragically mislead. The History of the JW is well recorded in many places and of non-biased sources with references to those who directly influenced Russell and who he adopted some of his practices from. Russell is the founder of the belief system you as a JW belong to, it has changed over the years but the JW did not even become recognized as such until around 1932. How many times does a person accept the prophecies of a man who repeatedly shows his beliefs are incorrect and his founding principles in opposition to scripture. Don’t you find it a bit odd that Russell used scripture to justify his establishing a new faith to his followers then changed most of the basis of scripture to fit his own teachings and then restricted what his followers were permitted to use for references?

 

[twb1621]

It would be in your best interest to make a self directed study on the Church’s teaching of the Communion of Saints before you say anything else.

Just a suggestion.

I concur… Not only that but I agree also.

 

[Zundrah]

Go for it:thumbsup:!!! If you feel she’s in heaven then why not? If she isn’t there (God forbid) or can’t hear you, then what are you out? 5 minutes of peaceful prayer time you spent reflecting on your grandmother’s wonderful life?

SD

No, she was a monster…

apologies zundrah, my response was actually meant for Dan, given some of his comments several pages back…
I guess it was still relevant to your comments.

Acts 8:24 – a guy called simon asks the apostle Peter to pray for him… “Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me…”

its been detailed before in this thread but catholics believe those that have died and are in heaven are still ‘living’ and remain a connected part of the body.

dont think anyone would argue that Mary is in heaven…
the canonized ‘Saints’ are belived to be in heaven also based on the authority given to the church (ie: keys/bind and loose etc…) when they do canonize.

So it is true, you catholics just randomly pray to the dead, assuming that they are in heaven?

 

[WesleyF]

Your statement is false. The Catholic Church does not believe this. First of all, your definition of the word “pray” as a single act of worships is incorrect.

(From Merriam Webster) merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray
transitive verb
1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

From the King James Bible,

“Put me, I pray thee, into one of the priests’ offices, that I may eat a piece of bread.” (1 Samuel 2:36)

“Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer’s house is”. (1 Samuel 9:18)

“And he said, What is the thing that the LORD hath said unto thee? I pray thee hide it not from me: God do so to thee, and more also, if thou hide any thing from me of all the things that he said unto thee.” (1 Samuel 3:17)

“The LORD forbid that I should stretch forth mine hand against the LORD’S anointed: but, I pray thee, take thou now the spear that is at his bolster, and the cruse of water, and let us go.” (1 Samuel 26:11)

These are just a few. There are literally dozens of such usages of the word “pray” in the King James Bible!

 

[SD_Catholic]

No, she was a monster…

So it is true, you catholics just randomly pray to the dead, assuming that they are in heaven?

Alrighty then on your grandmother.

Cmon Zundrah… “randomly pray to the dead” (this dead thing was put to rest 100 posts ago), why go from an honest seeker to these types of accusations? Perhaps it isn’t sarcastic, but it sure seems that way… remember the question I posed to you of how a Methodist pastor can stand in front of the congregation at a funeral and assure everyone there that the deceased person is enjoying heaven at that very moment… Catholics don’t even make it sound that absolute at those times. The real question should still just be can or should we pray to the saints. It’s starting to sound like you’ve been conversing with some anti-Catholic person… hopefully you aren’t because your chances of getting an honest and truthful response are doubtful.

SD