Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?

[Dan_Parker]

Alrighty then on your grandmother.

Cmon Zundrah… “randomly pray to the dead” (this dead thing was put to rest 100 posts ago), why go from an honest seeker to these types of accusations? Perhaps it isn’t sarcastic, but it sure seems that way… remember the question I posed to you of how a Methodist pastor can stand in front of the congregation at a funeral and assure everyone there that the deceased person is enjoying heaven at that very moment… Catholics don’t even make it sound that absolute at those times. The real question should still just be can or should we pray to the saints. It’s starting to sound like you’ve been conversing with some anti-Catholic person… hopefully you aren’t because your chances of getting an honest and truthful response are doubtful.

SD

Dan:
When Jesus said some would never die, he was speaking of the 2nd death, not death from sin inherited from Adam.

NAB Revelation 2:11 " ‘“Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The victor shall not be harmed by the second death.”’

The dead awaiting the resurrection are really dead, but those who heed

NJB John 5:25 In all truth I tell you, the hour is coming – indeed it is already here – when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and all who** hear it **will live.

Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich (BDAG) Greek Lexicon says of the word above “hear” that it means “heed” = **4. to give careful attention to, listen to, heed ** at John 5:25.

This means that those who are resurrected who heed the words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus will not undergo the second death.

This is the view of JWs and also apparently the editors of BDAG which was financed by Lutheran Missouri Synod.

BTW I was baptized as a baby in the Lutheran Church. Evidently you accept that baptism. I was anabaptized as a JW.

 

[panevino]

panevino:

I have not seen you post on this, can you let me know the id#.

Dan:
It is in this post.

panevino:
psalm 141:2 is definately an individuals prayer, no doubt about that.

Dan:
The NAB footnotes Psalm 141:2 with Rev 5:8. They each have a bowl, they each have their own prayers.

panevino:
but, the rev 5:8 verse mentiones that they have prayers of saints plural. I do see your point, and i am looking further. though I note rev 8:3 is very similar and it talks about 1 angel offering more prayers on the alter of more than 1 saint.
*Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints *on the golden altar which was before the throne. NASB rev8:#

panevino:
rev5:8 clearly says they have them in bowls in thier hands. if you dont like the word gathered, thats ok, but somehow they do have them.

Dan:
The incense is symbolic of prayers. Making a doctrine out a verse in a highly symbolic book is not a good hermeneutic. If there are other passages, I predict they will also be either symbol isms or parables.

panevino:
the pslam verse requests the prayer to be offered as incense.
the elders and the angel are clearly participating by offering prayers as incense…clearly the angel is not offering his own.

Dan:
**Do you pray to angels? ** I was not aware of that.

Thanks Dan, I’ve been really busy the last few days and have not had a chance to get back to this. I’ve got to say I was expecting your footnote to psalm 141 to blow me out of the water with regard to REV5:8, but I am not convinced.
either the prayers actually take the form of incense or not is beside the point I was trying to make (though i did notice that the greek in verse 5:8 does include the words” which are’ (αἵ εἰσιν)).
Ignoring the incense, rev5:8 says that the elders held the prayers of the saints/holy ones …‘Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones…’ NAB REV5:8

…each one of them had prayers of more than one holy one.

Do you have something more convincing that they are their own prayers in rev5:8, because the NAB footnote in psalm 141 does not do it.

back to the angel… Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

Sorry Dan, not sure why you jumped the way you did on my comment about the angel , I am merely showing the interaction that the Angel along with the Elders is shown to have with the prayers of the saints. ( in rev 5:8 & rev 8:3-4)

Regarding your comment “Do you pray to angels?”, I dont personally, but I do note that psalms 148 says the following, illustrating a prayer request to angels .

I’d assume they can hear this request of the psalms.

Psalm 148 - Praise the Lord.Praise the Lord from the heavens,praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels,praise him, all his heavenly hosts. Praise him, sun and moon,praise him, all you shining stars. Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies. Let them praise the name of the Lord,for he commanded and they were created. He set them in place for ever and ever

There is also psalms 103:20-22 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.

I know that John was told not to bow/worship the angel in Rev19:10 ”At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! …”

However catholics do not believe we are ‘worshiping’ Mary in heaven or a canonized saint in heaven when they ask them to pray for us. In the same way that simon was not worshiping Peter when he asked him to pray for him in Acts 8:24 “Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me…”

 

[Tomster]

You are convinced of a great many things, but as many others have been tragically mislead. The History of the JW is well recorded in many places and of non-biased sources with references to those who directly influenced Russell and who he adopted some of his practices from. Russell is the founder of the belief system you as a JW belong to, it has changed over the years but the JW did not even become recognized as such until around 1932. How many times does a person accept the prophecies of a man who repeatedly shows his beliefs are incorrect and his founding principles in opposition to scripture. Don’t you find it a bit odd that Russell used scripture to justify his establishing a new faith to his followers then changed most of the basis of scripture to fit his own teachings and then restricted what his followers were permitted to use for references?

Kind of like the blind leading the blind.

 

[Zundrah]

Alrighty then on your grandmother.

Cmon Zundrah… “randomly pray to the dead” (this dead thing was put to rest 100 posts ago), why go from an honest seeker to these types of accusations? Perhaps it isn’t sarcastic, but it sure seems that way… remember the question I posed to you of how a Methodist pastor can stand in front of the congregation at a funeral and assure everyone there that the deceased person is enjoying heaven at that very moment… Catholics don’t even make it sound that absolute at those times. The real question should still just be can or should we pray to the saints. It’s starting to sound like you’ve been conversing with some anti-Catholic person… hopefully you aren’t because your chances of getting an honest and truthful response are doubtful.

SD

…you must be able to read my mind, only recently I actually have heard many bad words from some anti-catholic fools… I shouldn’t really listen to them though.

I’m sorry for sounding so harsh in my previous post…

 

[jlhargus]

Thanks Dan, I’ve been really busy the last few days and have not had a chance to get back to this. I’ve got to say I was expecting your footnote to psalm 141 to blow me out of the water with regard to REV5:8, but I am not convinced.
either the prayers actually take the form of incense or not is beside the point I was trying to make (though i did notice that the greek in verse 5:8 does include the words” which are’ (αἵ εἰσιν)).
Ignoring the incense, rev5:8 says that the elders held the prayers of the saints/holy ones …‘Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones…’ NAB REV5:8

…each one of them had prayers of more than one holy one.

Do you have something more convincing that they are their own prayers in rev5:8, because the NAB footnote in psalm 141 does not do it.

back to the angel… Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

Sorry Dan, not sure why you jumped the way you did on my comment about the angel , I am merely showing the interaction that the Angel along with the Elders is shown to have with the prayers of the saints. ( in rev 5:8 & rev 8:3-4)

Regarding your comment “Do you pray to angels?”, I dont personally, but I do note that psalms 148 says the following, illustrating a prayer request to angels .

I’d assume they can hear this request of the psalms.

Psalm 148 - Praise the Lord.Praise the Lord from the heavens,praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels,praise him, all his heavenly hosts. Praise him, sun and moon,praise him, all you shining stars. Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies. Let them praise the name of the Lord,for he commanded and they were created. He set them in place for ever and ever

There is also psalms 103:20-22 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.

I know that John was told not to bow/worship the angel in Rev19:10 ”At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! …”

However catholics do not believe we are ‘worshiping’ Mary in heaven or a canonized saint in heaven when they ask them to pray for us. In the same way that simon was not worshiping Peter when he asked him to pray for him in Acts 8:24 “Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me…”

JL: You might want to ask Dan who the WT says the twenty four elders are. If I remember correctly they are those of the 144 thousand who have died and are resurrected as spirits and now with Christ in heaven. If the prayers offered by the elders are their own prayers then who are they praying for and why? I am one of the honored ones along with Teak, that I know of so far, who have been put on INGNOR by Dan, so if anyone wants to use any of my remarks as their own please fill free to do so. Here is the background for my being put on INGNOR,
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5720027&postcount=275

“Hence our dear Pastor, now in glory, is without doubt, manifesting a keen interest in the harvest work, and is permitted by the Lord to exercise some strong influence thereupon.” Watch Tower, Nov. 1, 1917 [COMMUNION OF SAINTS].

The dear Pastor is Russell who had passed away. The WT changed this teaching in the 930’s.

 

[SD_Catholic]

…you must be able to read my mind, only recently I actually have heard many bad words from some anti-catholic fools… I shouldn’t really listen to them though.

I’m sorry for sounding so harsh in my previous post…

I’m sure it’s tougher trying to believe coming from your point of view.

If Scripture is too unclear on which way Jesus meant than perhaps reading some of the early Christians who learned under John would be of help. St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Justin Martyr, along with many others during the early days of Christianity, were very helpful in explaining what Jesus meant by his words. They left little to the wondering on how Christians were to view the Eucharist. But anyway maybe reading a little of what they had to say might be helpful

SD

 

[Tomster]

JL: You might want to ask Dan who the WT says the twenty four elders are. If I remember correctly they are those of the 144 thousand who have died and are resurrected as spirits and now with Christ in heaven. If the prayers offered by the elders are their own prayers then who are they praying for and why? I am one of the honored ones along with Teak, that I know of so far, who have been put on INGNOR by Dan, so if anyone wants to use any of my remarks as their own please fill free to do so. Here is the background for my being put on INGNOR,
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5720027&postcount=275

“Hence our dear Pastor, now in glory, is without doubt, manifesting a keen interest in the harvest work, and is permitted by the Lord to exercise some strong influence thereupon.” Watch Tower, Nov. 1, 1917 [COMMUNION OF SAINTS].

The dear Pastor is Russell who had passed away. The WT changed this teaching in the 930’s.

So the dear deceased Pastor, who is now in glory, is, WITHOUT A DOUBT, manifesting a keen interest in the harvest work, AND is permitted by the Lord to EXERCISE SOME STRONG INFLUENCE thereupon.

WOW! It sounds like the JW’s have some sort of canonization of saints process in their theology.

Oh, wait! Excuse me! It seems that after Pastor Russell was canonized he was then “un”-canonized by his followers. I, for one, would like to know, from the Scriptures, how the JW’s can explain all of this.

 

[Tomster]

Dan:
When Jesus said some would never die, he was speaking of the 2nd death, not death from sin inherited from Adam.

NAB Revelation 2:11 " ‘“Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The victor shall not be harmed by the second death.”’

The dead awaiting the resurrection are really dead, but those who heed

NJB John 5:25 In all truth I tell you, the hour is coming – indeed it is already here – when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and all who** hear it **will live.

Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich (BDAG) Greek Lexicon says of the word above “hear” that it means “heed” = **4. to give careful attention to, listen to, heed ** at John 5:25.

This means that those who are resurrected who heed the words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus will not undergo the second death.

This is the view of JWs and also apparently the editors of BDAG which was financed by Lutheran Missouri Synod.

BTW I was baptized as a baby in the Lutheran Church. Evidently you accept that baptism. I was anabaptized as a JW.

Dan,

So you were “anabaptized.” Interesting. Please expalin this “anabaptizing” process and show us where this process is located in the Bible.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

So you were “anabaptized.” Interesting. Please expalin this “anabaptizing” process and show us where this process is located in the Bible.

That was tongue in cheek. I was baptized again as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. As in other Christian denominations we are not Paedobaptists.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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