Catholic Apologetic Challenge: Refute this if you are up for it

[Mannyfit75]

This is an article I found from Alpha and Omega Ministries title Why I left?

Since I have no time to take the time to refute it. Can anyone who is up to the challenge refute it.

It is written by Benny Diaz…

Enjoy your refuting.

aomin.org/why_I_left.html

 

[Gamera]

Oh, brother. My head is spinning from so many twists and turns in logic. I like the part about how the Catholics added 11 books to the Bible in 1511. How many mistakes can you cram into one sentence? LOL.

So apparently the answer to his question “Why I left the Roman Catholic Church” is: because he didn’t have a clue what it teaches.

 

[Church_Militant]

Lemme see here…

In October of 1981, while visiting a friend in the hospital, I was confronted with the question, “Are you a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ according to the Word at God?

” I was also asked, “Would you like to invite the Lord Jesus in your heart to save you and to give you eternal life?” Well, these phrases were foreign to my vocabulary. You see, my friend happened to be a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. **I wasn’t.**This shows just how poor his Biblical knowledge was. He should have known that Sola Scriptura is a fundamental error and seen the equal error of the second question (“hooks” they are really called in salesmanship) neither one of them is “according to the Word at God”.

He also bought the other guy’s interpretation that he was not a born again Christian, when a Catholic who knows his faith can answer these questions with confidence and charity.

In his hospital room he shared with me from the Bible how God in us Supreme love and grace, provided a way for me to have all my sins forgiven and washed away. He shared with me how God sent us only-begotten Son to die for me. It was amazingly revealed to me that Jesus Christ died once and for all on the cross at Calvary for the sins of all that would believe and call upon his name. Tears filled my eyes when I began to realize how Jesus carried the cross, shed His blood on that cross, was ridiculed, spat on and beaten for ME! It was shown to me from God’s glorious Word how Jesus then died, was buried and how He arose in glory to be my Savior! He is now my only way to God and my only Mediator

.Here again…SS though the essentials are also what catholics believe until he gets to the end of this paragraph where he implies the false premise that this is somehow not what Catholics believe. Only an ignorant Catholic would fall for this.

Yes, I needed salvation and I came to realize then, and every day since then, that salvation comes only through Jesus Christ alone. No other can fill His place nor can He again be put to death for He died once and for all on that cross at Calvary almost 2000 years ago! On that day I prayed and received Christ Jesus and believed in His Lordship! And do you know what? He saved me because He promised to in His Word, the Bible!

Which tells you that in his ignorance he bought the other guy’s sales pitch. Granted, that most of what we see here is actually in line with Catholic belief, but again, he blows the whole thing when he falls into n-C theology with the sinner’s prayer bit. Here already you can see he’s building his case (the one he has bought into) to say that Catholics aren’t Christians, and aren’t saved. However, the Lordship of Christ is fundamental to Catholic belief, so again, he displays his ignorance.

You’re probably wondering what this has to do with my leaving the Roman Catholic Church. Everything!

See, here comes the a-C attack, but a knowledgeable Catholic will say he’s lost the case already because he’s alleged things that are fundamentally untrue about Catholics.

I was a Roman Catholic for 23 years prior to my conversion. As a Catholic I believed many things which were necessary in order to be a “good” Catholic.

So far, he’s show that much of what he believed was erroneous. I’m sure he’ll enlighten us…

I came to realize at the time of my conversion and the months following that most of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church stand contrary to the Bible.

False, but stated as fact.

I realize this may sound shocking to some but I believe if anyone is willing to take God’s Word in one hand, the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church in the other, one will come to the same conclusion.

Really? I did and came to just the opposite conclusion. My Testimony. I’ve already shown that his knowledge of the Catholic faith is badly deficient.

With this conclusion one is left with the decision of following the teachings of Rome or the teachings of God’ s Holy Word, the Bible. I would like to, lovingly and Biblically, share with you these differences. I prayerfully hope God might use this information to edify and help you.

Allegation inaccurately stated as fact. Typical of propaganda…

(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

(Part II)

After becoming a born again believer in Jesus Christ and being led by the Holy Spirit according to the Bible, His Word, I began to find that the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings were not in harmony with the Scriptures.

Reiterates his false allegation as fact…

… First, the RCC teaches that their priests have at least two powers. One is the power to forgive the sins of their people. They believe these sins are forgiven or absolved either in private confessions or in a general absolution (as a large group present in the church).

Wrong…
Reconciliation (Confession):Leviticus. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 (even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.). Matthew 3:6,18:18, 9:6 & 8, Mark 2:7, John 20:21-23, Acts 19:18, 2nd Corinthians 5:18-19, James 5:16, 1st John 1:9-10.

The second power that the RCC priests claim to have is the power of “transubstantiation”. With this power they claim that the priest has the power to take the Lord Jesus Christ from His throne in heaven, change the Lord’s body, blood, soul, and divinity, into the form of bread and wine at every Roman Catholic Mass. They ‘then believe that Jesus is offered as a continual sacrifice for the sins of their people.

Here he implies this conflicts with the Bible. He’s dead wrong.

The Eucharist: Foreshadowed extensively! John 6:31-70, Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:17-20, Luke 24:30-35, 1st Corinthians 10:16-17, 1st Corinthians 11:23-30.

Those who truly believe in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and read their Bible believe that Jesus died ONCE FOR ALL! Hebrews Ch.7-10) Christ made it clear from the cross, “IT IS FINISHED!”. (John 19:30)

So after having misrepresented Catholic teaching he now offers a refutation. This is known as a “straw man” argument.

The Bible makes it clear that no man can forgive sins no matter how sincere he might be. Only GOD can forgive sins. (Mark 2:7)

If you look up his reference you’ll find that he’s quoting the unbelieving Jews…not Our Lord.

Courtesy of John Martignoni’s Bible study notes.
Confession

A. Confess your sins to men
	~ Leviticus 5:5-6 (�All scripture��: 2 Tim 3:16)
	      (Law is a shadow: Hebrews 10:1)
	~ 1 John 1:9
	~ James 5:16

B. Can men forgive sins?
	~ Only God has the power to forgive sins but He exercises this power through men.
	~ Mark 2:7
	~ Matthew 9:1-8

C. Instituted by Christ
	~ John 20:21-23

The Word of God says that Christ will come again in glory, not in the form of bread and wine. It is clear that when Jesus said, “This is my body,” He was speaking symbolically

, just as He did when He called us His “sheep” and when He called Himself the “door,” “vine,” “shepherd,” etc. Jesus said, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” For believers to believe that Jesus is “continually being offered as a sacrifice” is to deny God’ s Word… “knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him” (Romans 6:9).Welcome to Sola Scriptura 101!

But look at what the Word of God actually says in 6:31-70, Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:17-20, Luke 24:30-35, 1st Corinthians 10:16-17, 1st Corinthians 11:23-30. It is only by forcing someone’s interpretation onto the passages that “symbolic” language can be asserted. It’s not there.
(Cont’d)

 

[Gamera]

Ex-Catholic “testimonies” like these just infuriate me. They all sound like this:

“I was a Catholic for 35 years. I knew all about Mary but nothing about Jesus. Then one day, someone told me that Jesus died for me. They quoted John 3:16, which I’d never heard before, and as the sweetness of God’s words poured into my heart, I burst into tears. Jesus died FOR ME!!! I was FREE!!!”

To which my response is, I’m glad that you finally “get it,” but weren’t you listening during those 35 years of Mass when the Gospel was being preached from the pulpit every week? Did you wear a walkman to church every Sunday to avoid listening? Honestly, I feel more sympathy for the crackpots who’ve been born and raised to be anti-Catholic bigots. At least they’ve got an excuse, they were raised that way. But these people who grew up Catholic and “never knew that Jesus died for me” drive me nuts. Bless their hearts.

 

[antimon]

In my worse moments I think that Holy Spirit must be divided…

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Ex-Catholic “testimonies” like these just infuriate me. They all sound like this:

“I was a Catholic for 35 years. I knew all about Mary but nothing about Jesus. Then one day, someone told me that Jesus died for me. They quoted John 3:16, which I’d never heard before, and as the sweetness of God’s words poured into my heart, I burst into tears. Jesus died FOR ME!!! I was FREE!!!”

To which my response is, I’m glad that you finally “get it,” but weren’t you listening during those 35 years of Mass when the Gospel was being preached from the pulpit every week? Did you wear a walkman to church every Sunday to avoid listening?

I think the same thing when I hear/read that. I don’t know how someone with working ears can sit in Mass every Sunday and NOT hear about Jesus. And saying they’d never read the Bible or never heard John 3:16 gets me in a near tizzy. Isn’t the Creed recited every week? Doesn’t it say something very similar to John 3:16?

Honestly, I feel more sympathy for the crackpots who’ve been born and raised to be anti-Catholic bigots. At least they’ve got an excuse, they were raised that way. But these people who grew up Catholic and “never knew that Jesus died for me” drive me nuts. Bless their hearts.

AMEN!! I have been praying for my f-i-l’s wife, who grew up RC with Latin Mass but apparently never bothered to read the English translation in the Missal. She didn’t understand anything and was bored stiff, says she. She about fell over when I told her I was going to a Catholic Church these days.

 

[clmowry]

Not a chance. Don’t fret.

Chuck

In my worse moments I think that Holy Spirit must be divided…

 

[InLight247]

Tell you the truth, I didn’t even finish reading that article.

I feel so sorry for that person who is so clueless about the Catholic teaching. What a big loss of him due to his own ignorance. His understanding of Catholic faith is so lack of understanding and so full of misunderstanding.

I will not waste my energy for it. Instead, I will continue to devote my time for teaching CCD, to lay a better foundation for our youth and hope they won’t fall into such a tragedy in the future.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

These “testimonies” are all the same. Why can’t any of them just say, “Look, I didn’t leave the Catholic Church because of Mary; they don’t worship her; nor did I leave because they hate the Bible; they don’t; nor did I leave because (add litany of normal bogus reasons here); I left because I need my birth control pills/am gay/didn’t like the taste of the cafeteria food/etc.”? (Yes, I know, it’s because all these people just stay in the church and wear ignore the rules, wear rainbow sashes, and so forth)

 

[Church_Militant]

Another reason for leaving the RCC is the church’s belief in the dogma of Mary. The RCC teaches that Mary is the Church’s model. She is called the “mother” of the church. In the Documents of Vatican II, she is called the church’s “Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.” The RCC believe that she is without sin and that she never died, that she ascended bodily into heaven as did Jesus.

The Word of God makes it clear that Mary was “blessed among women”, NOT blessed ABOVE women. In the Old Testament a woman named Jael was called “blessed among women” (Judges 5:21). That doesn’t mean we are to worship her! The Bible makes it clear that “ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Jesus died on the cross f or our sins and MARY’S! In the book of Luke, Chapter 2, we find Mary called God her Savior. Why does she need a Savior if she was without sin? The Bible also makes it clear that Jesus is the only Mediator for us. “There is one God, and one Mediator between God and man; the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 3:5). “There is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved” (Acts 1:12).

(I could just about swear that I saw this one a forum within the last day or so…)

Notice that he makes his statements as if he is a reliable authority…but, is he?

1. He makes it sound as if we believe that Mary didn’t need the sacrifice of Christ instead of recognizing that (as the Greek teaches) that she was full of grace and what that actually means.

she ascended bodily into heaven as did Jesus.

She did? Anybody seen a teaching on this? Obviously, this guy doesn’t know the difference between assumption and ascending.
Immaculate Conception and Assumption

The RCC also teaches that salvation, true salvation, comes only through the Roman Catholic Church. It is through her sacraments and her grace. The Bible contradicts this in that “He saved you, not by deeds you have done in righteousness, but by His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).

That’s a refutation? Just where do we get taught that we are saved by our own works? Actually…we’re not.

(Part III)

“This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me. But in vain do they worship Me. TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN. Neglecting the commandments of God, you hold to the tradition of men… You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep YOUR TRADITION… invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down” (Mark 7). “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures, or the power of God?” (Mark 12:21).

See anything that is actually a coherent refutation of Catholic teaching? You know where this is going right? An attack on Sacred Tradition.

As a Catholic, I was taught many “traditions of men” which were philosophically rationalized to agree with the Bible. I did not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God, but after my salvation the words of Jesus became true to me: “You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free… If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed” (John 8:32,36). In the Catholic Church I was not free. I had no assurance of my salvation because, as a Catholic, my salvation depended on the Sacraments of the (RCC) church, the intermediation of Mary and the saints, and the forgiveness of God rested upon the priest through the confessional and the Sacrifice of the Mass. I did not realize the free gift of the Almighty God in Jesus Christ by faith alone.

See any facts here? That’s odd… after I “carefully studied to present myself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” I discovered that the Sacred Traditions of the Catholic Church offered even greater assurance that what I believed was indeed in line with the things that the early church believed and so I am all the more assured of the truth of it all.

Get the impression that this dude doesn’t know much about the Catholic faith?
(Cont’d)

 

[alexaustralia]

First post got me all worked up thinking this was going to be a though one … what a disappointment

Typical convert story were they blame the church for their own shortcomings in their faith.

 

[TheApologist]

    “No man can redeem the life of another
    or give to God a ransom for him-
    the ransom for a life is costly,
    no payment is ever enough-” (Psalm 19:7-8)

Here comes the purgatory bit. I think a ton of it comes from a misunderstanding of the word “redeem” and the work of people praying for those in purgatory. He thinks the people in purgatory are not redeemed. Those in purgatory are assured of heaven. We simply pray that the damage of sin on the souls are healed more quickly. Us redeeming others has nothing to do with purgatory.

Other than purgatory…
We do NOT redeem others. We can HELP them redeem themselves(through helping them through the conversion process).

    “It is appointed for men to die once
    and after this comes the judgement” (Hebrews 9: 27)

He, once again, doesn’t acknowledge the actual teaching of the Church. The Church teaches that we are judged individually and then publicly as a whole in the End of Days. Also, he misunderstands the role of purgatory. Those in purgatory have already been judged and have been deemed worthy of heaven(eventually) after cleansing.

November 2nd is “All Souls Day” in the Roman Catholic Church. It is a time when the Catholic faithful who have died are remembered. They are also prayed for and to by the members of the RCC. Many of these dead ones are believed to be in a place or state called Purgatory. They believe that penances, indulgences, and Masses can be performed to rescue, if not lessen, the punishment that these may be facing.

He misunderstands the meaning of All Souls Day. Those which are not in Purgatory which merit prayer are Saints. And they have All Saints Day. All Souls Day is ONLY for those in Purgatory…is it not?

The Roman Church teaches that purgatory is a place in which souls who depart in this life and are in God’s grace suffer for a time because they still need to be cleansed from venial sins. They may still have to pay the punishment due to mortal sins, even though the guilt and eternal punishment of which may have been remitted.

Okay, this seems okay…

An indulgence is the remission granted by the Catholic Church f or the punishment due to sin that has already been forgiven. The disturbance caused by that sin can be atoned for by penance, suffering, or good works. An indulgence granted to the souls in purgatory may shorten the stay in that punishment or lessen the severity of it.

This looks okay as well. I’m glad he recognized that an indulgence is only for those sins which have already been forgiven. He misunderstands penance though. Technically, if we do penance for an indulgence, then we could a)pray b)give alms or c)fast. Suffering is techincally fasting from feeling good and good works are technically alms I guess.

The Modern Catholic Dictionary defines purgatory as follows:

“The place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they enter Heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning f or the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same f or all, but apportioned to each person’s degree of sinfulness. Moreover, these sufferings can be lessened in duration and intensity through the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth. Nor are the pains incompatible with great peace and joy, since the poor souls deeply love God and are sure they will reach heaven. As members of the Church Suffering, the souls in purgatory can intercede for the persons on earth, who are therefore encouraged to invoke their aid. Purgatory will not continue after the general judgement, but its duration for any particular soul continues until it is free from all guilt and punishment. Immediately on purification the soul is assumed into heaven.” (pg. 152)

Okay…

In other words, the Roman Catholic Church believes that there are many who upon death do not go to heaven, but to a place of punishment were they must pay for their sins. Those of their faith on earth can pray to them for intercession and should pray for them that they may not suffer long before advancing to heaven.

I don’t really like his using of negatively connotated words to describe purgatory.

continued on next post…

 

[TheApologist]

It is also held that persons on earth can provide different means of “payment” for the punishment due for their own sins as well as the sins of the deceased through prayers, penances, acts of charity (giving of money), or good works.

Technically, prayers are penances. Also, an act of charity doesn’t Have to be giving of money. Also, don’t priest have to refuse money now, due to the controversy? I may be mistaken…

The Bible has a lot to say against these false teachings. As we have seen, we cannot redeem anyone else (Psalm 49:7-8). After death comes the judgement, not purgatory! (Hebrews 9:27). The word “purgatory” is not found in the Bible. The doctrine of purgatory is not taught in the Holy Scriptures. We cannot be redeemed by money!

Once again he misunderstands purgatory. He thinks Catholic teaching states that we are not judged before purgatory which is untrue. To the bold…neither is Trinity but I’m sure he believes in it. And, in fact, if he did look at more Catholic arguments, he would see that purgatory is taught in Scripture. Also, he thinks we think money can redeem us. Again he states that the offerings we make for those in purgatory redeem them. They don’t. Seriously.

The first epistle of Peter states, “You were not redeemed with perishable things like silver and gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of the Lamb, unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. (1 Peter 1:18-19) See also Isaiah 52: 3, 55:1; Acts 8: 20.

Yeah, we aren’t redeemed in purgatory.

The total cleansing of our sins was performed by the one time sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross of Calvary! (See Gal. 2:1-11; 1 John 1:7; Hebrews 9:1-11; Romans 8:1). Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise!” (Luke 23:43).

“And when you were dead in your transgression and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us… We has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).

He misunderstands forgiveness and cleansing of damage from the sin that was forgiven. Also, he doesn’t state the possibility that the thief on the cross was granted an indulgence by Jesus.

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all our unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

Once again, forgiveness is not cleansing of damage due to sin. Also, cleansing of unrighteousness doesn’t naturally denote cleansing of damage due to sin. It could, and probably does, mean cleansing of sin itself, not the damage done by it.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life” (John 5:24).

Once again, he seems to think that those in purgatory haven’t been, at least, promised eternal life. He uses Scripture passages with his own interpretation to seemingly “denounce” purgatory. I could use this Scripture passage to state that we are not judged at all if we hear and believe…naturally I don’t because the real message of the written Word comes through it’s completeness, not through bits and pieces.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

All Souls Day is ONLY for those in Purgatory…is it not?

I always thought that “All Souls Day” was for, well, all souls, no matter where they are.

If it was for the souls in purgatory, wouldn’t it be called “Church Suffering Day” or something like that?

But according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, you’re right and I’m wrong, though it doesn’t make any sense to me why it’s called “All Souls Day” if it’s not for ALL souls

 

[TheApologist]

I always thought that “All Souls Day” was for, well, all souls, no matter where they are.

If it was for the souls in purgatory, wouldn’t it be called “Church Suffering Day” or something like that?

But according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, you’re right and I’m wrong, though it doesn’t make any sense to me why it’s called “All Souls Day” if it’s not for ALL souls

If I didn’t already know, I would think All Souls Day is for all souls, but , then again, the terms like the Virgin Birth, the Immaculate Conception, and such have VERY different connotations. It’s best to learn what this and that means and what plug goes into which outlet.

 

[Mannyfit75]

n the Documents of Vatican II, she is called the church’s “Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.” The RCC believe that she is without sin and that she never died, that she ascended bodily into heaven as did Jesus.

this what really gets me is the claim that Vatican Council II called Mary Advocate, Adjustrix, and Mediatrix."

I took some time to look at the official documents of 2nd Vatican Council on Mary.

The only think I found was APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
OF HIS HOLINESS PAUL VI MARIALIS CULTUS. That document itself mentions nothing Diaz claim the Council made about Mary as Mediatrix. The Church has not made that dogmatic. She might in the future, though I think it is unnecessary.

You can check out and find if his claim bears any truths. I did mine and find it his claim false. I could be wrong, it would be good if any of you fellow Catholics can check it out.

 

[Vigis]

Ex-Catholic “testimonies” like these just infuriate me. They all sound like this:

“I was a Catholic for 35 years. I knew all about Mary but nothing about Jesus. Then one day, someone told me that Jesus died for me. They quoted John 3:16, which I’d never heard before, and as the sweetness of God’s words poured into my heart, I burst into tears. Jesus died FOR ME!!! I was FREE!!!”

To which my response is, I’m glad that you finally “get it,” but weren’t you listening during those 35 years of Mass when the Gospel was being preached from the pulpit every week? Did you wear a walkman to church every Sunday to avoid listening? Honestly, I feel more sympathy for the crackpots who’ve been born and raised to be anti-Catholic bigots. At least they’ve got an excuse, they were raised that way. But these people who grew up Catholic and “never knew that Jesus died for me” drive me nuts. Bless their hearts.

Here here!

God bless.

Vigis

 

[Vigis]

Give me an hour or two in a room with this guy and I will chew him up and spit him out! Everything that he has said is based on many misconceptions. It has no merit or fact. He thinks the deutercanonical books were added! Lies! They were in every Bible in Western Christendom. They only made that rock solid dogma because Martin Luther had attacked it!

Because all of these questions “are you born again?” come about it infuriates me. Not because that they are directed at non-christians. I have no problem with that. It makes me mad because many go up and ask Catholics who they know who are Catholics and ask them as a tool of conversion! They act like that we are the seeds of evil! I am tempted to tell them “No, I am not, and frankly Scarlat…I dont give a…(you should be able to gues the next word)” just to get a laugh at their expression. I would not do that though because that is not being a good Christian. I would probably ask them “What is truth?”.

God speed.

Vigis

 

[LilyM]

I always thought that “All Souls Day” was for, well, all souls, no matter where they are.

If it was for the souls in purgatory, wouldn’t it be called “Church Suffering Day” or something like that?

But according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, you’re right and I’m wrong, though it doesn’t make any sense to me why it’s called “All Souls Day” if it’s not for ALL souls

Based on that you must think it’s for those souls who are in hell too

It’s shorthand, ‘Day for All the Souls in Purgatory’ is a little long if you have to repeat it lots.