Catholic Apologists as Zionists?

[WestonGrant]

I don’t know about these supposed terrible things Robert Sungenis wrote about Jews. Why would he say something like Walt Disney didn’t hire Jews? And why would he make up something by Einstein about antisemitism? He’s only against Zionism and wants to expose their conspiracies to take over the world and the Church. It doesn’t make any sense so I don’t believe it.

Although, I have to admit I did have to apologize about Mr. Sungenis getting his doctrate from Maryvale and not Calamus International College. But that was my mistake. Mr. Sungenis told me I was wrong, that he did really get his PhD from Calamus International. So I’ll eat some crow on that one.

I admit the college doesn’t look right but he told me that he did loads of work on his doctrinal paper about geocentrism to get the PhD and I believe him.

About Zionism though. If theres a conspiracy, of course they are going to deny it. Isn’t that just common sense? What Zionist trying to help take over the world is going to say, Yeah, here I am trying to take over the world. That would be rediculous.

 

[batteddy]

or would you say, “Well, maybe it’s true, but I’m not part of it?”

Well, I’d probably say, “I doubt it’s true, but either way, I personally have no knowledge of such a thing.”

If they were adamant in insisting there was a Catholic conspiracy, I’d say, “Well, I think that’s silly…but as long as you recognize that I personally don’t have anything to do with it…you can blame these nameless, faceless ‘shadow’ Catholics all you want…”

I certainly wouldn’t be terribly offended by the idea (like a lot of Jews seem to be)…I’d just think it’s silly. And if it leads to persecution, well “Blessed are the persecuted”…

And if the Vatican City State was killing innocent Palestinians and yet still sucessfully lobbying for a river of american gold to flow into it’s coffers everyday…I might indeed suspect a conspiracy.

 

[MrS]

Zionism is about making the Jews into people who take the place of Christ and who want to take over the world. The want to take over all the Arab countries and make Israel like it was in the days of King Solomon.

If they are going to do that, they have to have their hands in everything and maybe that’s what they are doing, get their hands into everything and control us.

Sungenis gives a lot of evidence about all this and I don’t see anything wrong with it. The Journal of Historical Review is another authority that has an incredible amount of information about these things too. Did you ever think these people are just trying to warn us about what the Jews are up to? Maybe we should be watching out for this because the antichrist might come out of all of it. Hate for Christ should make people paying attention.

you suggest some things worth thinking about… but forget post #10 - he has an anti-Sungenis agenda and thus singles him out … and that type of condition will only cloud the issue at hand.

 

[Happy_Hour87]

I don’t know about these supposed terrible things Robert Sungenis wrote about Jews. Why would he say something like Walt Disney didn’t hire Jews? And why would he make up something by Einstein about antisemitism? He’s only against Zionism and wants to expose their conspiracies to take over the world and the Church. It doesn’t make any sense so I don’t believe it.

The terrible thing he said? That Jews are trying to take over the world. It’s baseless. It’d be no different than if I said African-Americans are trying to take over the country. There’s no reason to believe it. If anything, my accusation would only crystalize my own prejudice.

About Zionism though. If theres a conspiracy, of course they are going to deny it. Isn’t that just common sense? What Zionist trying to help take over the world is going to say, Yeah, here I am trying to take over the world. That would be rediculous.

But nobody’s arguing whether guilty people deny their actions. Iambic Pen only mentioned how innocent people would equally deny such accusations. Suppose I told a black man about a “negro” conspiracy to take over the world! Would he have reason to be upset? Should I become suspicious if he gets defensive? Don’t you see that there’s more reason for suspicion if he only says he isn’t involved?

This whole idea that Jews are trying to take over the world is a conspiracy theory, an anti-Semitic one at that. It originated with the Protocals of Zion, which have been falsified, and the discussion should have ended. The documents were written by an anti-Semitic group with an obvious agenda.

If you don’t mind me asking, who do you see as the bigger threat, Jewish Zionists or radical Islamists? I think we should get our priorities in order.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I certainly wouldn’t be terribly offended by the idea (like a lot of Jews seem to be)…I’d just think it’s silly. And if it leads to persecution, well “Blessed are the persecuted”…

Then surely the Jews are the most blessed of all people on this Earth. I am reminded of a line from the movie Fiddler on the Roof, which I paraphrase:

“Lord, I know we are your chosen people. But sometime, could you choose someone else?”

The Jews have been persecuted for centuries, and much of that persecution, sad to say, has come from Christians. The Jews are used to conspiracy theories against them leading to acts of violence against them. It’s not as simple as “sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” Words lead to actions.

Maybe it’s easy to say the Jews should just allow their persecutors to do as they will, but very few people would apply such principles to their own culture. America certainly has not.

And if the Vatican City State was killing innocent Palestinians and yet still sucessfully lobbying for a river of american gold to flow into it’s coffers everyday…I might indeed suspect a conspiracy.

But if the Palestinians were killing innocent Vatican citizens, yet still successfully lobbying for money from nations all over the world, that would complicate the issue.

The Israeli-Arab conflict is a serious issue, and we should all pray for everyone on both sides. We don’t have to blindly endorse every Israeli action, but neither do we have to believe in some vast Zionist conspiracy to take over the world.

 

[batteddy]

This whole idea that Jews are trying to take over the world is a conspiracy theory, an anti-Semitic one at that. It originated with the Protocals of Zion, which have been falsified, and the discussion should have ended. The documents were written by an anti-Semitic group with an obvious agenda.

No.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was falsified to lend credibility to the theory…but the theory has been around for centuries.

I do tend towards a conspiratorial view of human history more than an accidental one.

Look at who events benefit, and I think you will often find the cause of those events…

But if the Palestinians were killing innocent Vatican citizens, yet still successfully lobbying for money from nations all over the world, that would complicate the issue.

Yeah, but if those citizens were not innocent…and in fact had siezed and stolen palestinian land and were now living there as illegitimate squatters…then those Palestinians deserve to defend themselves and fight for their freedom.

Sure, they shouldn’t attack women and children…but in war, that happens, sadly. The Palestinian freedom fighters are bad too, but their side is still the theoretically “right” one in the grand scheme…even though in individual cases, they act very wrong. But in the war, they still “should be” the winners.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Look at who events benefit, and I think you will often find the cause of those events…

The Jews really need to get some new people to run the shadow governments around the world, because they haven’t been doing a very good job at protecting the Jewish people.

Yeah, but if those citizens were not innocent…and in fact had siezed and stolen palestinian land and were now living there as illegitimate squatters…then those Palestinians deserve to defend themselves and fight for their freedom.

The situation is far more complicated than that, of course, but that is another discussion, which would tend to drift away from the topic.

Sure, they shouldn’t attack women and children…

Yes, I agree.

but in war, that happens, sadly.

And it’s even more sad when these women and children are the deliberate targets…

The Palestinian freedom fighters are bad too, but their side is still the theoretically “right” one in the grand scheme…

And that is entirely your opinion.

even though in individual cases, they act very wrong. But in the war, they still “should be” the winners.

And God help us all if that happens.

I realize my Evangelical Protestant background has probably affected my opinions on this matter, but I have come to be rather shocked at a surprisingly anti-Israel attitude held by many (though not all, of course) Catholics. Perhaps all those stories about how Jews were better off in Muslim countries than they were in Christian Europe are true, after all…

 

[batteddy]

The Jews really need to get some new people to run the shadow governments around the world, because they haven’t been doing a very good job at protecting the Jewish people

I don’t think the goal of any hypothetical “secret-jews in hidden power” would be to protect their own people. They would use the common, every day jews merely as pawns. Zionism is not really their goal, that would just be another chapter, another aspect of setting the stage for the final goal: the rise of Antichrist.

Any satanic forces that do exist in the world would, according to a conspiritorial view, only be creating all the lesser evil ideologies of the world to advance their final goal (an arrogant and demonically inspired attempt at a type of “Dark Providence,” an attempt to control history)

According to a conspiratorial view, the “jews” in power (who would really be total atheists) would have created Nazism just as much as Zionism. Nazism as a prelude to zionism (get the jews persecuted, build up a huge resevoir of sympathy, get a state of israel, have the “desert bloom” and have the jews’ state and success look like a divinely sanctioned “miracle,” create another crisis [perhaps with the muslims?] build a third temple, have a hero save the world, and then have this hero (Antichrist) present himself on temple mount to be worshipped as Almighty God by a world who [through other planned events] has been made sexually deviant, liberal, and secularist, and so grasps onto him, beholden)

Now. I’m not saying I believe they are omnipotent (they are not God). The forces of light are always fighting the forces of darkness. But if you dont think Satan is trying to manipulate history for evil (again, a sort of diabolical attempt at Providence) and isn’t using his minions to try to arrange events (of course, this is all included under God’s Providence and plan…which is why they are ultimately foolish)…I’d say that boarders on heresy. Evil doesn’t merely exist as seperate, independent, random sins and events. Satan has an organized plan for evil’s ascendence in history, too. And at this point in time, Zionism is probably their current project to advance things to the next stage.

I’m not saying the humans involved are a coherent group who are all colluded. They all, frankly, probably dont believe in Satan, are acting out of self-interest, and many of them are probably enemies. But Satan is guiding their individual evils into a coherant plan of evil in history for sure.

 

[Happy_Hour87]

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was falsified to lend credibility to the theory…but the theory has been around for centuries.

They did not lend credibility to the theory. The theory you speak of having existed for centuries prior is not a theory at all, but a religious dogma for most Muslims. The Jews are the enemy of Allah, and they must die.

I do tend towards a conspiratorial view of human history more than an accidental one.

Are you saying you do believe Jews are behind everything? Were they behind 9/11? You’re the real radical, not the Jews.

Look at who events benefit, and I think you will often find the cause of those events…

…

Yeah, but if those citizens were not innocent…and in fact had siezed and stolen palestinian land and were now living there as illegitimate squatters…then those Palestinians deserve to defend themselves and fight for their freedom.

They’ve been given the opportunity time and time again to prove themselves! Muslims are simply incapable of living peacefully with Jews, or most anyone for that matter.

Sure, they shouldn’t attack women and children…but in war, that happens, sadly.

That’s terrible for you to say; justifying the targeting of innocent women and children. Israelis never target Muslim women and children. It’s understandable that some are killed accidentally, but for you to equate that to Palestinians who purposefully intend to kill women and children is disgusting.

The Palestinian freedom fighters are bad too, but their side is still the theoretically “right” one in the grand scheme…even though in individual cases, they act very wrong. But in the war, they still “should be” the winners.

And this proves “liberalism” is a religion. What is it that makes you believe the Palestianians are fundamentally good while the Jews are bad?

 

[trth_skr]

…
…create another crisis [perhaps with the muslims?] build a third temple, have a hero save the world, and then have this hero (Antichrist) present himself on temple mount to be worshipped as Almighty God by a world who [through other planned events] has been made sexually deviant, liberal, and secularist, and so grasps onto him, beholden)

Interesting thesis.

There will only be true peace on earth after the death of the Antichrist. Two or three periods of peace before the Antichrist will be of short duration, a peace after a war, and although I wish this war does not arrive, it will be terrible, terrible, then the short peace ; …After the Antichrist, who will fall body and soul into hell, the ground opening in the presence of the thousands of spectators coming from all the parts of the world to be witness to his exaltation (as he had announced) and entrance to heaven;…

Melanie Calvat, Seer of La Sallette

…It will be then that the Antichrist will be born of a Sister, but woe to her! Many will believe in him, because he will claim to have come from heaven,…

…That time is not far away, twice 50 years will not go by…

Melanie Calvat, Seer of La Sallette

[1846 + 50 + 50 = 1946]

Note that later Melanie identified the Sister as a “false Hebrew Nun”, and the father as a bishop.

But, note that neither Melanie, nor apparently Mary identified the “Jews” as the specific source of evils. I am not saying that Jewish thought and action may not be part of and a tool of evil (especially in spreading naturalistic materialism), but I imagine there are other tools available in addition. If anything it is one component. We have done plenty of damage to ourselves within the Church.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[batteddy]

And this proves “liberalism” is a religion.

LOL!!

You obviously don’t know me.

My caution about the Jews comes from radically right wing ideology…definitely NOT left wing.

In America, because of evangelical dispensationalism, it is seen as “conservative” to support the so-called “state of israel”

But in terms of the traditional political spectrum…it is definitely not traditional to support them. It is a progressive thing to support jewish nationalism. And i am no progressive, I am a reactionary.

 

[batteddy]

In Old Testament days, the Jews were the salt of the earth. They were God’s nation, God’s tool for good, God’s hand in the world.

Still, that says NOTHING about individual Jews. Clearly, the bible tells us that there were obviously Good and Bad Jews, sinners and saints, even though the people abstractly “as a whole” were God’s force in the world, God’s light to the gentiles.

In New Testament days, the Church (the true continuation of Judaism) is the salt of the earth. We are God’s people, God’s tool for good, God’s hand in the world.

Still, that says NOTHING about individual Catholics. Clearly, there are obviously Good and Bad Catholics, sinners and saints, even though the institution “as a whole” is God’s force in the world, God’s light to the heathens.

But…there is a break away sect that didn’t follow the messiah into the true continuation of Judaism. Some Jews kept their covenant and became disciples of the Christ: Mary, the Apostles, the Evangelists etc…

But there was a sect of other people, ethnically hebrew, who would not follow the Christ.

Because he likes to mimic God, Satan bastardized this community of “jews” who didn’t follow Christ into a perverted copy of the True Israel. They are especially used by Satan, his hand in world affairs, his “chosen people,” his force for evil in the world.

Satan always likes to do things analogous to God, creating a “bizzaro world,” as it were, of “dark mirror images” of God’s actions (Christ-Antichrist, Mass-BlackMass, etc). And so he wanted to “choose” a special people too. And what better people to choose? What people have more of an air of legitimacy about them, what people were more intimately connected to the divine (and thus all the better to desecrate) than the jews who remained perfidious (ie “half-faithful”) but would not embrace the Christ?

Still, that says NOTHING about individual Jews. Clearly, there are obviously Good and Bad Jews, sinners and saints, even though the polity “as a whole” is sort of like Satan’s force in the world, satan’s analogue to God’s Church.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

In Old Testament days, the Jews were the salt of the earth. They were God’s nation, God’s tool for good, God’s hand in the world.

Still, that says NOTHING about individual Jews. Clearly, the bible tells us that there were obviously Good and Bad Jews, sinners and saints, even though the people abstractly “as a whole” were God’s force in the world, God’s light to the gentiles.

True enough.

In New Testament days, the Church (the true continuation of Judaism) is the salt of the earth. We are God’s people, God’s tool for good, God’s hand in the world.

Still, that says NOTHING about individual Catholics. Clearly, there are obviously Good and Bad Catholics, sinners and saints, even though the institution “as a whole” is God’s force in the world, God’s light to the heathens.

True, as well.

But…there is a break away sect that didn’t follow the messiah into the true continuation of Judaism. Some Jews kept their covenant and became disciples of the Christ: Mary, the Apostles, the Evangelists etc…

I think we should be charitable toward the Jews in this respect. I think most of those who did not become Christian were motivated by a desire to obey the Law, not a desire to break away. So, while we, as Christians, believe the Jews were wrong to reject Christ, I think we ought to give them the benefit of the doubt when it came to their motives for doing so. The fact that Christians since then have done a rather poor job of showing Christ’s love to the Jewish people has certainly not helped matters, either.

Because he likes to mimic God, Satan bastardized this community of “jews” who didn’t follow Christ into a perverted copy of the True Israel.

Well, they are still Jews. I don’t think quotation marks are needed. I also believe that Catholic teaching is that while the Church is Israel in a sense, God has never abandoned the Jewish people.

Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! (NIV)

I think there is a dangerous tendency for Christians to become arrogant. As the Jews were cut off for their unbelief, so also can we be cut off. And, they too can be “grafted back in again.” So, pray for the Jews to accept Christ as the Messiah and as God the Son, but do not have an attitude of arrogant superiority toward them.

They are especially used by Satan, his hand in world affairs, his “chosen people,” his force for evil in the world.

Which page of Mein Kampf is this from?

And so he wanted to “choose” a special people too. And what better people to choose? What people have more of an air of legitimacy about them, what people were more intimately connected to the divine (and thus all the better to desecrate) than the jews who remained perfidious (ie “half-faithful”) but would not embrace the Christ?

The Jews are not our enemy, and if some individuals are serving Satan, we should pray for them, just as we pray for all sinners. If we sin, and we do sin, we are no better, after all.

 

[Happy_Hour87]

Seems everyone’s making only religious arguments against the Jews. I don’t think that’s fair, but I’ll go with it.

We should at least clarify what precedes the Second Coming. We know that nations will rise against nations (Mt 24:7), that there will be widespread hostility to Christianity, many will be put to death, and we will be hated by all nations (Mt 24:9), that there will be many false prophets (Mt 24:11, 24), that the Antichrist will stand in the “holy place” (Mt 24:15, 31), and that the Gospel will have been preached to the whole world (Mt 24:14), that the Christian world will apostatize (Thess 24-12; 1 Thess 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18, 22), Jerusalem will return to Jewish hands shortly before the Second Coming (Lk 21:24), Jerusalem will be “a heavy stone for all the peoples”, “all who lift it shall grievously hurt themselves”, and “all nations of the earth will come together against it” (Zechariah 12:1-3; also Joel 3:2 and Revelation 16:16), Israel will miraculously defeat its enemies (Zechariah 12:6-9), and there will be a widespread conversion of the Jews (CCC 674, also Rom 11:20-26, Mt 23:39). The Church Fathers understood Israel would come to recognize the Messiah before he came (St. Augustine for example: “In connection with the last judgment, therefore, we who believe can be sure of the following truths … the Jews will believe”).

If persecution is a precursor to the antichrist, which group do you think is more likely to fulfill it: Zionist Jews or radical Islamists? The question’s rhetorical. We’ve already seen Christians persecuted by Muslims all over the world. Look at the genocide in Darfur, or the Copts in Egypt, or the Mennonites in Lebanon, or the Christians in the Holy Land. Europe is crumbling. Demography shows that Europe will be predominantly a Muslim continent in another two decades. And they don’t assimilate. The moderates are the ones who want Sharia law imposed, but are simply unwilling to crash planes into buildings to get it.

The theory’s most obvious flaw is this: world opinion hates Israel (and I thought the antichrist was going to be worldly). If the anti-Christ is going to represent Israel, he’s going to have a tough time getting Muslims to like him (much less worship him), if he stands for anything Israel currently stands for. I find it a bit silly to believe the Muslim world will one day bow to a Jew. It could happen. I acknowledge that. I think the antichrist could be a Jew, but I think it’s ridiculous to say he’d be a Zionist. Isn’t Zionism what the world is so opposed to? Are there any Muslims who support Zionism?

 

[batteddy]

I think we ought to give them the benefit of the doubt when it came to their motives for doing so.

Christ didn’t. He forgave them, but he did not excuse them.

He was quite clear in his message and miracles: He was unambiguously the Christ. The scribes and pharisees (ancestors of ossified modern rabbinical judaism) were condemned in NO uncertain terms.

God did NOT create an ambiguous situation. Jesus was QUITE clear about this. Doubt that He was the Christ was almost entirely feigned and most of the ignorance culpable ignorance.

The theory’s most obvious flaw is this: world opinion hates Israel (and I thought the antichrist was going to be worldly).

Because human nature is intrinsically good. Most people in the world are men of good will. They can see it is clearly evil too. But I’ll point out this much: the people in POWER support zionism. It is the blessed poor and opressed peoples of the world who hate zionism. It is the Evil, Decadent West who supports them…not the “anawim”…

Radical Muslims are misguided, but look at their zeal! They are potentially a force for good. Certainly more so than atheist zionists and secular europeans and decadent americans.

They truly love their God and are willing to die for Him! If only they knew the He didn’t want them to fight for Him using violence, but rather using truth and love…

But if it comes down to siding with Soviet Russia to defeat the Nazis…I’d make the uneasy alliance again.

So too would I side with the radical muslims against secularism…instead of siding with secularism against the radical muslims.

 

[batteddy]

The Jews are not our enemy,

No. Not exactly.

Would you say that, in Old Testament days, ALL the Gentile nations of the Earth were the “enemies” of Israel?

No. Obviously, they even had allies among the Gentiles…

But the symbolism remains, Jews were contrasted to Gentiles…as nowadays Christians are contrasted to Jews.

The dichotomy has switched. It doesn’t necessarily make them our “enemy”…

In the Old Testament days…Israel was God’s people, and the Gentiles were the instruments of His wrath and punishment.

Nowadays the Church is God’s chosen in the world…and the Jews are the instrument of his wrath.

They aren’t necessarily evil or our enemies. But they are certainly now used to Test us and Try us…

It is like Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel, yes, but God put a mark on him, and woe to anyone who kills Cain! The Jews now wander the earth as Cain. Cain wasn’t necessarily the enemy of the other humans (and certainly was cared for by God so that no one would hurt him) but he WAS marked, and the line of Seth became the chosen Line.

Esau gave up his birthright. He didn’t necessarily become bad, (Jacob embraced him when they met later)…but he was set in sharp contrast to Jacob…

There are a million Biblical examples.

God’s chosen are now the Church, and the remaining polity (again, not necessarily any particular individuals) has been given over to satan to be used as the instrument of God’s wrath. I wouldn’t call them “enemies”; sometimes we deserve it (just like in the Old Testament the Jews were said to have deserved various exiles and wars to keep them in line)…they wander the earth offering flesh witness…

And just as the gentiles brought the Jews’ great exile to Babylon …so to, in the new analogue, the Jews will bring about (perhaps are already bringing about) the Christians’ eschatological exile to Mystery Babylon.

Of course, “The” Gentiles and “The” Jews are vague terms; as the Bible clearly shows with people like Ruth and Rahab…there are many good people even in the “opposite” community, even in the “mirror image” people…and we should pray for the similar conversion of any potentially willing Jews to the Church…

Jews:Gentiles::Christians:Jews…the symbolism is rich, beautiful, and entirely biblical if you let go of political correctness and zionist propaganda…

 

[Happy_Hour87]

Because human nature is intrinsically good. Most people in the world are men of good will. They can see it is clearly evil too. But I’ll point out this much: the people in POWER support zionism. It is the blessed poor and opressed peoples of the world who hate zionism. It is the Evil, Decadent West who supports them…not the “anawim”…

I’m not sure whether the Catechism teaches man is basically good. I suspect it doesn’t, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. I do know heaven is entered through the narrow path (meaning the path to hell is wide). I forget the Scripture for that verse, but I’m sure you’re familiar with it. I also know that the world hates those who follow Christ. The Cross is wisdom, and the Cross is foolishness to the world.

You seem confident that the leaders of the world are staunch supporters of Zionism. If that’s the case, it should be easy for you to list some, outside of America.

Radical Muslims are misguided, but look at their zeal! They are potentially a force for good. Certainly more so than atheist zionists and secular europeans and decadent americans.

Don’t be silly.

They truly love their God and are willing to die for Him! If only they knew the He didn’t want them to fight for Him using violence, but rather using truth and love…

They love their God because they love their passions.

But if it comes down to siding with Soviet Russia to defeat the Nazis…I’d make the uneasy alliance again.

Alliance with whom?

So too would I side with the radical muslims against secularism…instead of siding with secularism against the radical muslims.

How is allowing Jews to carry on their way of life siding with secularism?

 

[batteddy]

How is allowing Jews to carry on their way of life siding with secularism?

An imaginary country cooked up 60 years ago is NOT a way of life.

Israel is supported because it stands for progressivism, democracy, and consumerist capitalism.

It’s all part of one great satanic agenda that worships liberty and prosperity.

I forget the Scripture for that verse, but I’m sure you’re familiar with it. I also know that the world hates those who follow Christ. The Cross is wisdom, and the Cross is foolishness to the world.

That doesn’t mean we can’t have mutual enemies.

The Muslims DO hate us. The world does hate Christians. But just because they hate us, doesn’t mean we can’t both hate zionism.

Thus the comparison to our Alliance with Stalin against Hitler.

You seem confident that the leaders of the world are staunch supporters of Zionism. If that’s the case, it should be easy for you to list some, outside of America.

America IS the leaders of the world. People may resent America…but no country could defeat us. Other nations leaders, are frankly, made to sit at the “kiddy table”…

That is why the radical muslims are so intriguing. They are NOT a nation, and yet are holding us at bay in Iraq etc using guerrilla tactics even though no Nation could defeat us in war. (just like the Rebels in Star Wars, and the Americans in the Revolution…no Planet could ever defeat the Empire, but a few strategically placed rebel ships could…no nation could defeat Britain, but some rebellious colonists did with their help…)

 

[Happy_Hour87]

An imaginary country cooked up 60 years ago is NOT a way of life.

Ok…

Israel is supported because it stands for progressivism, democracy, and consumerist capitalism.

Suppose the Jews annihilated in the Holocaust were secularists. Would wanting to help them mean I support secularism? Allowing a nation to exist does not automatically mean I support their values. So far you haven’t convinced me of your conservative values. True conservatives are inclusive.

It’s all part of one great satanic agenda that worships liberty and prosperity.

At least you didn’t cite the Quran. All you’ve done so far is make religious arguments. Put religion aside for a moment, and give me a reason why I should believe the Jews are up to a conspiracy.

That doesn’t mean we can’t have mutual enemies.

Correct.

The Muslims DO hate us. The world does hate Christians. But just because they hate us, doesn’t mean we can’t both hate zionism.

Correct.

Thus the comparison to our Alliance with Stalin against Hitler.

You’re equating the Jews to Hitler? You truly want Israel wiped off the map. I’m not sure if it’s even worth debating at this point.

America IS the leaders of the world. People may resent America…but no country could defeat us. Other nations leaders, are frankly, made to sit at the “kiddy table”…

I asked a simple question. If the world’s leaders support Israel, who are they? I guess I have to list them for you: George Bush, Tony Bliar, and John Howard. That’s it.

That is why the radical muslims are so intriguing. They are NOT a nation, and yet are holding us at bay in Iraq etc using guerrilla tactics even though no Nation could defeat us in war. (just like the Rebels in Star Wars, and the Americans in the Revolution…no Planet could ever defeat the Empire, but a few strategically placed rebel ships could…no nation could defeat Britain, but some rebellious colonists did with their help…)

How’s that related? What’s really intriguing is your choice to describe terrorists as “intriguing”.

 

[batteddy]

give me a reason why I should believe the Jews are up to a conspiracy.

How’s that related? What’s really intriguing is your choice to describe terrorists as “intriguing”.

You call them terrorists. I call them freedom fighters in Palestine.

I don’t really like them. But they have killed just as many innocents as America (and certainly Israel) has. The only difference is that we cast a veil of legitimacy over it because we have “adult states” and they don’t…oh, wait, they want one! You don’t find it at all suspicious that we won’t let them have one? The reason we won’t is because then their violence would have just as much legitimacy as ours, and we would have to fight them man to man instead of being able to condescend as much.

Put religion aside for a moment, and give me a reason why I should believe the Jews are up to a conspiracy.

America’s support of Israel is counter-intuitive. If we condemned them and left our bases in the Middle East (which, if you are honest, you will admit are there to protect israel)…the Muslims would leave us alone, and yet we support them. We send them tons and tons of money.

Look into world banking, the media, academia, and politics. There are only 14 million jews in the world and yet they have an inordinately disproportionate representation and influence in these areas.

Ariel Sharon killed innocents, is fat, is lecherous…and somehow became their leader and is, if not seen as a hero, at least defended by the Jews…

There is something rotten in the state of israel…

You truly want Israel wiped off the map.

There are LOTS of parts of the world’s borders i would redraw if I could…but I know its not going to happen. I’d get rid of a united italty and germany and return those to little principalities and city states too…but I know it’s not going to happen.