Catholic apologists wanted - help :)

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I thought you might be interested to know that we were banned from the forum this morning just for being Catholics. That said, in a post discussing our banning, most of the members seem to think it was unjustified:
why was he banned?

i am nobody, but i had no problem with him being here.
he couldn’t change my beliefs any more than a muslim could.

if you don’t subscribe too or want to see his posts, don’t click on them.

banning him is censorship…
This is a private forum, I think that it is in the best interests of the people who started it (Newton2012, and Dudev) to keep it on target with it’s stated name. The Watcher Forum. I’m all for open debate but linking all those sites and then rebutting our questions with very poor answers or no answers at all is a poor usage of this forum and a hinderance to this forums purpose.

Censorship? I think not. He can go somewhere else and spout that stuff. How’s that censorship? Gee, if somebody came on here and started talking about making chocolate chip cookies and told us that we need to make chocolate chip cookies or we’d all die would banning them be wrong? No! His posts had about the same effect.

Let’s get back to watching instead of being distracted with this Jesuit confusion maker.

I hate catholicism!!!
Enoch

P.S. But I love the people.
A catholic missionary?lol.

But I do have to wonder, do we not seek to spread the conspiracist anti-catholic dogma?

I’ve accepted that this is my lot, but often I hear a sanctimonious tone against the Rcc.

As believers we should be armed and ready, but I hear a lot of plain old nastiness against them. It reminds me of how the Jews viewed the samaritans. Though the attack on their idolatry was justified, I don’t think that it was Christlike to treat them as dogs. Jesus didn’t either.
It just doesn’t seem sincere to add token statements of love ( as afterthoughts) after really treating a person badly. If Pablo is violating the rules and purpose of the board then he should go. If he’s rude then he should also go. But I’ve heard rudeness towArd him too… Should that be overlooked?
It just seems like a double standard toward uncomely conduct.
 
Tell them that the belief in the antichrist is the direct result of a failure to understand apocalyptic literature
 
I went to the site. And with all due respect…
  1. Why would you waste your time among people that obviously are fanatics? Did you really think you were going to change them?
  2. Why did you go in with both guns blazing? What did you think was going to happen? You WERE spamming THIER board. You don’t go into someone else’s house and start trying to redecorate.
    Don’t let your zeal cloud your judgement. Michael Francis is right:
We suggest that you will be better equipped to deal with the arguments against the Catholic faith if you post here at CAF the arguments that you face elsewhere (without naming names of course) and ask for help as to how to respond.
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Even here at CA it is difficult to remember we must be charitible in our discussions. If we forget, we have others on this board who will remind us. It does no good to play in the mudpit. Take my word for it.
 
BTW, this quote by one of the members should have been a clue you were going nowhere:
nobody is going to read catholic propaganda. If you want to make a point or use a resource, it must NOT be a catholic resource. If it is…no one here will give it one once of consideration.
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“Nobody is ever convinced by argument. They just think up new reasons for maintaining old positions and become more defensive.” Louis L’amour.
 
GeorgeSword said:
They refuse to hear anything like that… any real Catholic teaching they just say are lies and ignore it. I don’t know about the forum you remained on but honestly some of the comments I have recieved are… disturbing. I’ve been threatened, persecuted, insulted and told to ‘stay away from our children’… that is right. They seriously threatened to ‘shake me’, presumably to shake the demons out…
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Maybe they have some very serious sins in their life they are not willing to deal with in confession. Don’t be surprised if this is the case.
 
JustaServant said:
I went to the site. And with all due respect…
  1. Why would you waste your time among people that obviously are fanatics? Did you really think you were going to change them?
  2. Why did you go in with both guns blazing? What did you think was going to happen? You WERE spamming THIER board. You don’t go into someone else’s house and start trying to redecorate.
    Don’t let your zeal cloud your judgement. Michael Francis is right:
Even here at CA it is difficult to remember we must be charitible in our discussions. If we forget, we have others on this board who will remind us. It does no good to play in the mudpit. Take my word for it.
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I started posting there because of the horrid anti-Catholicism I saw in about every thread. I was introduced to the board by a friend.

I respectfully disagree with your take. These people are simply horridly hateful and willfully ignorant. You cannot have a discussion with such people - as you suggest in referring to them as fanatics.

If they are fanatics, why do you criticize us for our methods? What methods would you recommend in dealing with fanatics? Do you think it is best to make NO attempt to introduce them to Catholic truth? You seemed to have walked in at the tail end - when, yes, a lot of material was posted. Before that point, a single, charitable rebuttal of their anti-Catholic mythology was met with a chorus of “Bablyon Whore!”, “Vatican Spy”! and so forth.

You never know what seed might have been planted in the hearts and minds of the more reasonable people there. Those are the people would who have read, and thought, and probably not responded.

I would suggest that those who don’t care for shovels refrain from coaching the ditch-diggers too heavily.
 
PaulF2 said:
I would suggest that those who don’t care for shovels refrain from coaching the ditch-diggers too heavily.
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I was a member for two years on the ‘Fighting Fundamental Forums’ before they kicked me off for daring to revert. And, believe me, the ‘Watchers’ are in pristine mental health compared to the FFF. Just visit the site sometime if you have the stomach for it.
I posted my entire testimony there when I reverted. They have long since deleted it. But the the responses both public and in PMs were some of the most vicious, evil, and horrid words I ever read. So, yeah, I know of what I speak.
In retrospect, I probably should have found a different way of announcing my reversion, and quietly left the forum. But I didn’t do that. There was some glee at waving the red flag in front of the bull I suppose. I should have chosen more wisely. Just a few years before, I probably would have agreed with many of the reactions.
Methods? When you approach ANYONE with the intent of telling them thier world-view is upside-down, you better be ready for what appear to be nice, kind people to turn into werewolves. Method is everything. To go in with guns blazing, like I did, repulses rather than attracts. I was throwing it into their face, not a terribly mature or charitible thing to do. Perhaps it is better to do it gently to approach slowly, and kindly, with charity. Remember it’s God who changes hearts, not you or me.
If people want to know about the Catholic Church, they can find the answers. With the internet, there is now no excuse for people to remain ignorant.
Every now and then I visit the FFF. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. Its like going back to your high school reunion and discovering your classmates never grew up. God has to be the One who brings them to the point where they will want to grow up. When they do, they will have questions. That is the whole point of this site. To give an answer.
They wont find it on the Watchers forum or the FFF. They will find it in the heart of God. And God can use us to change hearts.
 
PaulF2 said:
I started posting there because of the horrid anti-Catholicism I saw in about every thread. I was introduced to the board by a friend.

I respectfully disagree with your take. These people are simply horridly hateful and willfully ignorant. You cannot have a discussion with such people - as you suggest in referring to them as fanatics.

If they are fanatics, why do you criticize us for our methods? What methods would you recommend in dealing with fanatics? Do you think it is best to make NO attempt to introduce them to Catholic truth? You seemed to have walked in at the tail end - when, yes, a lot of material was posted. Before that point, a single, charitable rebuttal of their anti-Catholic mythology was met with a chorus of “Bablyon Whore!”, “Vatican Spy”! and so forth.

You never know what seed might have been planted in the hearts and minds of the more reasonable people there. Those are the people would who have read, and thought, and probably not responded.

I would suggest that those who don’t care for shovels refrain from coaching the ditch-diggers too heavily.
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You did the right thing, Paul, you tried. I went through the same thing, and then after 3 months I left - literally! And then I read what I quoted before:

“Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.” (Acts 19:8-9)

“He put a stop, it means, to their evil-speaking: he did not wish to kindle their envy, nor to bring them into more contention. Hence let us also learn not to put ourselves in the way of evil-speaking men, but to depart from them: he did not speak evil, when himself evil spoken of.” - St. John Chrysostom
 
Luke65 said:
You did the right thing, Paul, you tried. I went through the same thing, and then after 3 months I left - literally! And then I read what I quoted before:

“Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.” (Acts 19:8-9)

“He put a stop, it means, to their evil-speaking: he did not wish to kindle their envy, nor to bring them into more contention. Hence let us also learn not to put ourselves in the way of evil-speaking men, but to depart from them: he did not speak evil, when himself evil spoken of.” - St. John Chrysostom
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Good advice, and one point of view.

Another would say “never give up”.

Full communion with the Catholic Church, with thus the grace of her sacraments, is by far the surest path to salvation.

In retrospect I should not have tried to fire off so many responses towards the end. I knew the ban was coming - they were calling for my head - and I wanted to make as many points as possible.

As crazy as many of those people seems to us - and they are ‘crazy’ in the sense of having willfully abandoned reason to some extent - nobody is beyond reach.

Yes, God does the converting - and we are His instruments! One statement from an authentic marian apparition really strikes me - which many saints have echoed - ‘countless souls go to Hell because they had no one to pray for them’. What does that say about how mysteriously what we do is interwoven with the salvation of our brothers and sisters?

I take issue with those (not talking about anyone here) who mistake any bluntness for lack of charity. Christ was plenty blunt when the willful obstinance of his audience called for it. Sometimes telling it just like it is, as harshly as that implies, is just what it takes to get somebody to really think. I know it’s worked on me.

So, in conclusion, I would not assert that I performed flawlessly in that battle. But I performed well in the service of truth, I think. At least I gave it my best shot, fallible as I am.
 
JustaServant said:
I was a member for two years on the ‘Fighting Fundamental Forums’ before they kicked me off for daring to revert. And, believe me, the ‘Watchers’ are in pristine mental health compared to the FFF. Just visit the site sometime if you have the stomach for it.
I posted my entire testimony there when I reverted. They have long since deleted it. But the the responses both public and in PMs were some of the most vicious, evil, and horrid words I ever read. So, yeah, I know of what I speak.
In retrospect, I probably should have found a different way of announcing my reversion, and quietly left the forum. But I didn’t do that. There was some glee at waving the red flag in front of the bull I suppose. I should have chosen more wisely. Just a few years before, I probably would have agreed with many of the reactions.
Methods? When you approach ANYONE with the intent of telling them thier world-view is upside-down, you better be ready for what appear to be nice, kind people to turn into werewolves. Method is everything. To go in with guns blazing, like I did, repulses rather than attracts. I was throwing it into their face, not a terribly mature or charitible thing to do. Perhaps it is better to do it gently to approach slowly, and kindly, with charity. Remember it’s God who changes hearts, not you or me.
If people want to know about the Catholic Church, they can find the answers. With the internet, there is now no excuse for people to remain ignorant.
Every now and then I visit the FFF. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. Its like going back to your high school reunion and discovering your classmates never grew up. God has to be the One who brings them to the point where they will want to grow up. When they do, they will have questions. That is the whole point of this site. To give an answer.
They wont find it on the Watchers forum or the FFF. They will find it in the heart of God. And God can use us to change hearts.
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Funny, I started out with thinking not too different from that when I started posting on this site. But the way they just all jump on you right from the get-go makes it seem utterly futile. Is it not right to call a spade a spade and point out when someone is obviously posturing, ignoring the argument, being vile, etc.? When I do that, it’s the benefit of others reading I’m doing it for.

I really think in virtually every case I was careful to speak truthfully, without emotion, and with charity in mind. Maybe my memory isn’t perfect.

Counseling the ignorant and admonishing the sinner are things were taught to do by the Church, after all. Yet so many in today’s society and even today’s Church will tell you both or at least the latter are evil. That is bunk.
 
PaulF2 said:
Funny, I started out with thinking not too different from that when I started posting on this site. But the way they just all jump on you right from the get-go makes it seem utterly futile. Is it not right to call a spade a spade and point out when someone is obviously posturing, ignoring the argument, being vile, etc.? When I do that, it’s the benefit of others reading I’m doing it for.

I really think in virtually every case I was careful to speak truthfully, without emotion, and with charity in mind. Maybe my memory isn’t perfect.

Counseling the ignorant and admonishing the sinner are things were taught to do by the Church, after all. Yet so many in today’s society and even today’s Church will tell you both or at least the latter are evil. That is bunk.
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Do you ever notice CA doesnt have ‘exclusive’ forum membership? You can belong to any religion, come here and find answers to questions you have about the CC.
The problem with many other religious forums is they will:
  1. Exclude you because you are Catholic.
  2. Relegate you to some basement where interaction is almost impossible.
    Now, if you want to try to ‘sneak in’ to a few of them, they’ll play with you for a while, then you will disappear. And so will your threads. Go back to the Watcher forum in about a month (oh heck, a week), and I will bet you lunch those threads will be mysteriously gone. Why? They do not want people to read them. They want them to remain in ignorance. That is why a site like CA is a far better place for those who have questions.
    But look, if you want to go to those sites and try to plant seed, more power to you. But you better be ready for a lot more than just a few public comments. Since I reverted, I’ve had two fundamentalists (one a member, briefly, of this forum) who stalked me online and even called my cell phone several times.
    I’m not trying to tell you what to do. Just be careful.
    There are a lot of crazy people who own computers.
 
JustaServant said:
Do you ever notice CA doesnt have ‘exclusive’ forum membership? You can belong to any religion, come here and find answers to questions you have about the CC.
The problem with many other religious forums is they will:
  1. Exclude you because you are Catholic.
  2. Relegate you to some basement where interaction is almost impossible.
    Now, if you want to try to ‘sneak in’ to a few of them, they’ll play with you for a while, then you will disappear. And so will your threads. Go back to the Watcher forum in about a month (oh heck, a week), and I will bet you lunch those threads will be mysteriously gone. Why? They do not want people to read them. They want them to remain in ignorance. That is why a site like CA is a far better place for those who have questions.
    But look, if you want to go to those sites and try to plant seed, more power to you. But you better be ready for a lot more than just a few public comments. Since I reverted, I’ve had two fundamentalists (one a member, briefly, of this forum) who stalked me online and even called my cell phone several times.
    I’m not trying to tell you what to do. Just be careful.
    There are a lot of crazy people who own computers.
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Some of those fundies are crazy in a very legitimate sense indeed, from what I’ve heard.

My wife experienced some awful enough things converting to the faith.

I salute you, sir, for seeking out & finding the truth. Not to set up a high horse for us to get on, but - you’re probably like me, in that you just feel like you always want to seek & follow truth, whereas it just seems that so many that will do everything to stay away from the true faith are so much more interested in maintaining their human relationships, their status quo, etc. Guess we have God to thank for that.
 
PaulF2 said:
Good advice, and one point of view.

Another would say “never give up”.
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I just wanted to make sure you didn’t miss the point Sts. Paul and Chrysostom were making. It is possible for your efforts to be counter-productive. If it stirs them up to anger they can harden their hearts even more. Plus, you don’t want to be the cause of them attacking the Bride of Christ. It calls for wisdom to discern these things, so pray for wisdom! God bless.
 
After I read some of the replies to this thread I decided to visit the FFF and see what the fundamentalists are mad about this week.
I was surprised to learn one of thier most frequent posters, a pastor, has resigned his church under mysterious circumstances. This ‘pastor’ took amazing glee in dancing on the graves of other ‘fallen ministers’, used incredible viciousness in attacking anybody who was not like him, or didn’t measure up to his vision of ‘holiness’. Now his enemies on that forum are having a field day eating one of their own. I feel sorry for the man, I will pray for him. I have no personal liking for the man, but he is a human being who needs to come to the fulness of the Faith. Fundamentalists will turn on each other just as quick as they turn on Catholics, and devour their own. (seems to me a guy named Paul said something similar)

I’m posting this only because I think any Catholic apologist better know what he or she is walking into when they decide to be a ‘virtual missionary’.
Fundamentalism is a childish dreamworld that creates its own universe, and then puts up walls so no ‘outsider’ can get in and wake them up to reality. The proponants tend to be emotional and spiritual toddlers. I’m not trying to be cruel, I’m being honest.
This is what you walk into when you log into those kinds of message boards. It takes a special kind of person. It’s not for everybody. Calling it a ‘hornets nest’ is being kind. You enter at your own risk, and you better ‘pray up’ (an old Baptist phrase:D) before you step in.
I wish you ‘virtual missionaries’ success. Perhaps you’ll encounter someone who wants to ‘grow up’. Just make sure you remain the adult in the daycare center.
🙂
 
JustaServant said:
Fundamentalists will turn on each other just as quick as they turn on Catholics, and devour their own. (seems to me a guy named Paul said something similar)
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And especially Fundamentalist preachers who become Catholic - look who I’m telling! 😛 And Scott Hahn may be the biggest victim.
Fundamentalism is a childish dreamworld that creates its own universe, and then puts up walls so no ‘outsider’ can get in and wake them up to reality. The proponants tend to be emotional and spiritual toddlers.
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Its all about the Sacraments, or the lack thereof. They’re drinking the bitter water of that fallen star (Rev. 8:10-11).
 
JustaServant said:
Fundamentalism is a childish dreamworld that creates its own universe, and then puts up walls so no ‘outsider’ can get in and wake them up to reality. The proponants tend to be emotional and spiritual toddlers. I’m not trying to be cruel, I’m being honest.
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That is nearly profound.
 
Luke65 said:
I just wanted to make sure you didn’t miss the point Sts. Paul and Chrysostom were making. It is possible for your efforts to be counter-productive. If it stirs them up to anger they can harden their hearts even more. Plus, you don’t want to be the cause of them attacking the Bride of Christ. It calls for wisdom to discern these things, so pray for wisdom! God bless.
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Yes, there is a point to simply sigh and walk away. I did that, twice, actually, at watchers, but came back. Partly because once you leave they start to tear down everything you’ve posted with absolute nonsense. As Servant has said, they are really fanatics, and create their own reality, so except for the ones with a sliver of reason left there is no hope in debate, but it is still very difficult to ignore that sort of thing at times.
 
PaulF2 said:
Yes, there is a point to simply sigh and walk away. I did that, twice, actually, at watchers, but came back. Partly because once you leave they start to tear down everything you’ve posted with absolute nonsense. As Servant has said, they are really fanatics, and create their own reality, so except for the ones with a sliver of reason left there is no hope in debate, but it is still very difficult to ignore that sort of thing at times.
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You should meet them in person.:eek:
 
PaulF2 said:
Hi guys,

I’m a Catholic apologist (amateur) having a go at it on a certain forum with the hardest of the hard-core fundamentalists: “the Pope is the antichrist” and all of that incredible nonsense.

I am the only Catholic there (putting it mildly) and have spent every free moment of my last two evenings at it.

I don’t want to give up the battle but would appreciate some assistance from anyone with the time.

Here are the two threads:

(Edited to remove links)

The forum doesn’t really restrict registration but there is a delay of about a day or so usually (for me & my wife anyway).

Thanks in advance and God bless!
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One of the first CAF threads I was on was a battle between some main line Christians and a fundamentalist. The first thing I noticed was that neither side was comprehending the meaning of certain words which were being used by both sides. Being new, I asked the fundamentalist what was his meaning. I got a better response than the rest put together.

Here is a small suggestion. Once in a while, instead of writing to do battle with the fundamentalists, write for the reader. I can see you doing this with posts here and I just want to encourage you to continue on other sites. Readers are the ones looking for the truth.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are worthy of profound respect.
 
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